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1947 Winchester 257 roberts supergrade
July 17, 2019
8:48 pm
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An old refinished supergrade 257.  It's not perfect and it is a definite shooter, but the price was agreeable.  I have wanted a supergrade 257 but never at the prices they required.  This one though limited in any collector value was quite affordable and is all in all a decently done refinish.  It has the wood repair where there used to be a side scope mount and the holes in the action are repaired where the mount was mounted.20190717_153454-640x360-480x270.jpgImage Enlarger20190717_153500-640x360.jpgImage Enlarger20190717_153509-640x360.jpgImage Enlarger20190717_153545-360x640.jpgImage Enlarger20190717_153556-640x360-480x270.jpgImage Enlarger

July 17, 2019
10:54 pm
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Hi King-

Just a question for my "research"...  What is the approximate S/N of your rifle (or year of production according to the WACA website)?  What is the shape of the hyphens at the beginning and end of "– SUPER GRADE –"?  Are they "dashes" or "tear drops"?  If the latter, do they point "in" or "out"?

There's a bit of M70 "lore" that I'm curious about and I cannot make it out from the pics you posted... It is stated in both Rule and Whitaker that the M70 SG floor plates always had "teardrop" beginning/end hyphens, and that "dashes" were post-63.  They usually point outward but sometimes inward.  I've even seen one (once) that pointed in the same direction (one in, one out):

29426.jpgImage Enlarger127839.jpgImage Enlarger72594.jpgImage Enlarger

But...  I've seen several o/w believable M70 SGs from the late '50s (usually Africans or SG FWTs, but also including regular SG rifles) that have "dashes".  It's true enough that post-63 SG floor plates have dashes.  The change from pre-64 to pos-63 involved much more than just the shape of the hyphens.  There was also the change from milled to cast steel, such that NOBODY would mistake a substituted post-63 floor plate for a pre-64 one.  

So... What up with these "dash" floor plates?  Definitely milled steel and on late SG guns.  Are they ALL fakes?  If so, who made the floor plates, b/c they aren't cast parts?  Was it post-63 production of pre-64 parts?  Or did the factory make the change somewhere around 1957, by which time few SG rifles (other than Africans and SG FWTs - and danged few of those) were being made?

Just curious what anyone can add...  Thanks!!!

Lou

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WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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July 17, 2019
11:00 pm
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20190717_175815.jpgImage Enlarger serial number is 131xxx

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July 17, 2019
11:37 pm
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Louis Luttrell said
So... What up with these "dash" floor plates?  Definitely milled steel and on late SG guns.  Are they ALL fakes?  If so, who made the floor plates, b/c they aren't cast parts?

The fakers wouldn't have had to "make" the floorplate itself, merely stamp standard ones with a fake roll die, such as have been cut for a multitude of factory markings going back many years; at least 30 yrs ago a dealer specializing in Winchester parts, mostly original, showed me a stack of at least half a dozen SG plates.  They weren't cheap, either, about $100 each 30 yrs ago. 

July 17, 2019
11:43 pm
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KingCobb said 
It has the wood repair where there used to be a side scope mount and the holes in the action are repaired where the mount was mounted.  

Can't see that, but otherwise gun looks damn good to me.  An all-original .257 would probably be too expensive to hunt with, anyway, if that's your intention.

July 18, 2019
12:33 am
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Hi Clarence-

THANKS... Good thought.  It had occurred... 

I'd agree that any SG rifle from before about 1957 that has a "dashed" floor plate is for sure parts gun. 

Thing is that some people who have no particular "skin in the game", argue that "dashed" floor plates were contemporary with late pre-64 SG production.  I have no opinion of my own at this point... If you look, such floor plates are fairly common on '57 or later SG rifles, especially Africans and SG FWTs (aluminum in that latter case).  I do collect photos of course...

I'm just trying to solicit opinions and I APPRECIATE yours. Laugh It's not like I am trying to sell SG pre-64s with dashed floor plates as originals...  I'm NOT a dealer in any sense... 

Partly my interest is that there's A LOT of stuff in "the books" that is given short shrift.  What, for example, was the height of the Win 103C sight used on M70 standard rifles?  Did it change, and if so, when?  Ditto Redfield full gold bead sights (254/255/256) on SG rifles/SG FWTs.  Do you know the answer?  It's not in Roger's book...  Not saying I do, I only what the data say thus far and I'm not yet confident enough to share...

Best,

Lou Laugh

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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July 18, 2019
12:52 am
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Louis Luttrell said

I'd agree that any SG rifle from before about 1957 that has a "dashed" floor plate is for sure parts gun. 

Well, at least it's a high-priced parts gun--I think the going rate for a milled SG floorplate that LOOKS original (whether it is or not, considering all the fakery out there, could probably only be determined by microscopic analysis) is at least $300. 

July 18, 2019
1:21 am
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Hi Clarence-

You are SO right...  My arrogant (personal) opinion is that the people who faked SG floor plates "back in that day" using their own stamps (or more recently computer controlled pantographs) created a product that is obviously different (fake)...  I've got four or five original finish M70 SG floor plates tucked away that I will keep "off the market" indefinitely and I think (perhaps naively) that I can tell the difference.

OTOH... As you pointed out, if someone got ahold of original roll marking dies (pre-64 or post-63), they could apply an "original" factory mark to an "original" factory part that did not "originally" bear such a mark.  There's the rub (as Hamlet might have said)...  Such rumors abound and may very well be (probably are) true, though I myself have no "proof"...

I've just read so much stuff recently in which folks refer to Rule's book as "the Bible"... Roger's book is REALLY GOOD and a remarkable piece of research for its day.  It's not perfect, however...  There's much stuff, sights for example, that Rule just did't cover adequately.  

At the risk of getting into trouble, my take is that a pre-war M70 SG rifle with a 0.360" tall Redfield 255 full gold bead sight is for sure a fake (it might as well have a "dashed" floor plate).  It's just a fake put together after RR's book came out. IMHO, the SG rifles used the same height front sight as the standard rifles of the day.  The predominant Lyman 31W and it's 1941 replacement the Win 103C (before the advent of soldered ramps and MC stocks) was 0.310" tall.  Same is (IMHO) true of the contemporary SG rifles... A 0.310 tall Redfield full gold bead sight is NOT a No. 255.

Best,

LouLaugh

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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July 18, 2019
1:30 am
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Hi King-

That's a 1949 S/N so it goes along with the oval cheekpiece stock.  I have a small few M70 SG rifles in that range (although none are in ROBERTS) and that part is all good.

What I couldn't make out was the shape of the hyphens on the floor plate.  Maybe my bad eyes...Cry

Thanks,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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July 18, 2019
1:32 am
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It's got tear drops to the outside

July 18, 2019
1:44 am
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King-

GREAT!!!  That's what it ought to have.  

Cool...Laugh

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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July 18, 2019
2:29 am
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Louis Luttrell said

I've just read so much stuff recently in which folks refer to Rule's book as "the Bible"... Roger's book is REALLY GOOD and a remarkable piece of research for its day.  It's not perfect, however...

Any so-called "bible," like Madis or Brophy's revered Springfield book, is never more than "best available" at a given point in time; there's ALWAYS more to be learned.

July 18, 2019
3:57 am
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clarence said

Louis Luttrell said

I've just read so much stuff recently in which folks refer to Rule's book as "the Bible"... Roger's book is REALLY GOOD and a remarkable piece of research for its day.  It's not perfect, however...

Any so-called "bible," like Madis or Brophy's revered Springfield book, is never more than "best available" at a given point in time; there's ALWAYS more to be learned.  

That is the absolute truth!  The best effort we put forth today will always be supersceded by new information in the future.  I agree, there is ALWAYS more to learn, that is what makes this hobby interesting!

Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

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