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We had a collectors gun show over the weekend here in Mesa, Arizona. I purchased an 1895 30US. The lovely lady from Cody was there offering free searches which was just great and my thanks to them for coming down to the show. The rifle dated 1898 and lettered as having a Lyman receiver sight, Lyman front and Lyman sporting rear flat top. The receiver sight was not on the gun but the other two were fine. Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation. Futhermore Mr Pirkle states that this sight should have “WR” or “WT” stamped on it depending whether it was one with adjustable wind-age post 1905 or non wind-age prior to 1905. I must confess I dont really understand the difference here..The whole point of the sight was the windage adjustment. I found one on line that supposedly came of an 1890’s Model. Any advice or help here would be appreciated. The rifle is in great shape and either way a I am very happy with my purchase but if I can get an original climin Lyman sight here to get it back to the way if left the factory I would be delighted. serial # 16785. I have a photo here but cant figure out how to attach it to this post…
If your 95 letters to 1898 I would think that it would have the non windage adjustable Lyman 21 sight on it. The windage was not the reason for the Lyman 21 sight though. Having a longer sight radius it enabled more accurate shooting than iron sights as well as faster sight acquisition and worked better than iron sights in low light. The early models were supposed to be adjusted for windage by “tapping the aperture with a light mallet”, something I would strenuously avoid. I would prefer to drift the front sight sideways instead. You can find a 21 with the right code for the 95 on Ebay or Gunbroker but be prepared to pay, they are NOT cheap. But if you have to pay $350-$500 for a nice sight it will increase the value of your 95 by that much or more, so you will come out ahead.
January 26, 2011
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Just to add to what Mike said, the Lyman 21 was the fixed windage (earlier) version and the Lyman 38 was the windage adjustable version. I believe the latter was available before 1905 though. I suppose the 21 would have been what it had on it at that time.
~Gary~
steelslide said
“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
Rick C
November 7, 2015
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Rick-
I suspect this is why the wise old collectors say “never say never” when it comes to Winchester.
Mike
RickC said
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
A Sporting Rear sight AND a Lyman 21 on the same gun? Although the factory did not prohibit stupid sight combinations if so ordered by the customer, I would suspect an error in the ledger.
clarence said
RickC said
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
A Sporting Rear sight AND a Lyman 21 on the same gun? Although the factory did not prohibit stupid sight combinations if so ordered by the customer, I would suspect an error in the ledger.
Clarence – very interesting thought. An error in the ledger – meaning the rifle was never shipped with a Lyman receiver sight – and hence never drilled for one – would suggest someone later added a receiver sight – and drilled through the lettering – which Winchester (supposedly) would not have done.
It sounds like a neat rifle and cool that it letters as an antique. In fact, I think there lies the answer to your question about why that the address stops at Jan.25.98. Rifles made slightly later than yours will have the Aug.23.98 patent date – your rifle was made before that patent date came into use.
RickC said
steelslide said
“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
I’ve observed a number of model 1895’s that letter with Lyman 21 and 38 receiver sights. It’s common for the rear mounting hole to be drilled through the address mark on the receivers. There are pictures of one in Kassab and Dunbar’s 1895 book. Mark
Mark Douglas said
RickC said
steelslide said
“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
I’ve observed a number of model 1895’s that letter with Lyman 21 and 38 receiver sights. It’s common for the rear mounting hole to be drilled through the address mark on the receivers. There are pictures of one in Kassab and Dunbar’s 1895 book. Mark
Mark –
That’s helpful information. Given the prominence of M1895’s in your collection, you would know 
Mark Douglas said
RickC said
steelslide said
“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
I’ve observed a number of model 1895’s that letter with Lyman 21 and 38 receiver sights. It’s common for the rear mounting hole to be drilled through the address mark on the receivers. There are pictures of one in Kassab and Dunbar’s 1895 book. Mark
Thanks Mark.
Rick C
It’s strange, that it letters with the sight and is drilled through the roll stamp, usually when you see that they have the wrong sight (DA), the shorter one for the 94, if it has the correct hole spacing for the WR sight, then I would say it’s correct and left the factory like that
Online
clarence said
RickC said
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
A Sporting Rear sight AND a Lyman 21 on the same gun? Although the factory did not prohibit stupid sight combinations if so ordered by the customer, I would suspect an error in the ledger.
Again, your “suspect an error in the ledger” comment is an error on your part. I have stated this many times in the past in reply to your false assertions concerning this very topic… The fact is that Winchester more often than not, installed a standard rear sporting sight when a peep sight was special ordered. It was standard practice… whether you agree with it or not. I could post hundreds of examples as listed in the factory ledger records that disprove your “error in the ledger” comment”.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
RickC said
steelslide said
“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”
I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?
Rick,
As Mark has stated, Winchester did indeed drill through the stamped markings on some models and guns. I believe that it is more prevalent on some modes (the 1895) than it is on others, but I know of other models that also had factory markings covered or drilled through to mount sights or telescopes. One of our members owns a Single Shot rifle that had the barrel drilled & tapped by the factory to mount an A5 telescope… they drilled right through the address marking on the top flat of the barrel for the front scope block.
I suspect that at least some of the instances where the factory drilled holes through the markings were as a result of a modification to the order for the gun, or an order was received for a gun specifying a special sight or telescope and Winchester simply took a gun out of warehouse stock and modified it before shipping it out.
Having stated the above, one should always very carefully examine any Winchester that has holes drilled & tapped through a factory marking. Usually, it is relatively easy to see the physical difference between factory machining and “Joe Smith” the gunsmith’s work.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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