Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
1895 Lyman reciever sight mystery
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 73
Member Since:
May 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
January 12, 2015 - 4:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

We had a collectors gun show over the weekend here in Mesa, Arizona. I purchased an 1895 30US. The lovely lady from Cody was there offering free searches which was just great and my thanks to them for coming down to the show. The rifle dated 1898 and lettered as having a Lyman receiver sight, Lyman front and Lyman sporting rear flat top. The receiver sight was not on the gun but the other two were fine. Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.  Futhermore Mr Pirkle states that this sight should have “WR” or “WT” stamped on it depending whether it was one with adjustable wind-age post 1905 or non wind-age prior to 1905. I must confess I dont really understand the difference here..The whole point of the sight was the windage adjustment. I found one on line that supposedly came of an 1890’s Model. Any advice or help here would be appreciated. The rifle is in great shape and either way a I am very happy with my purchase but if I can get an original climin Lyman sight here to get it back to the way if left the factory I would be delighted. serial # 16785. I have a photo here but cant figure out how to attach it to this post…  

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 216
Member Since:
March 19, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
January 13, 2015 - 1:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

If your 95 letters to 1898 I would think that it would have the non windage adjustable Lyman 21 sight on it. The windage was not the reason for the Lyman 21 sight though. Having a longer sight radius it enabled more accurate shooting than iron sights as well as faster sight acquisition and worked better than iron sights in low light. The early models were supposed to be adjusted for windage by “tapping the aperture with a light mallet”, something I would strenuously avoid. I would prefer to drift the front sight sideways instead. You can find a 21 with the right code for the 95 on Ebay or Gunbroker but be prepared to pay, they are NOT cheap. But if you have to pay $350-$500 for a nice sight it will increase the value of your 95 by that much or more, so you will come out ahead.

Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1277
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
January 14, 2015 - 3:27 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Just to add to what Mike said, the Lyman 21 was the fixed windage (earlier) version and the Lyman 38 was the windage adjustable version. I believe the latter was available before 1905 though. I suppose the 21 would have been what it had on it at that time.

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 618
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
March 8, 2024 - 1:27 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

steelslide said

“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

 Rick C 

   

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5190
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
March 8, 2024 - 1:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Rick-

I suspect this is why the wise old collectors say “never say never” when it comes to Winchester.

 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6522
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
6
March 8, 2024 - 2:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

RickC said

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

A Sporting Rear sight AND a Lyman 21 on the same gun?  Although the factory did not prohibit stupid sight combinations if so ordered by the customer, I would suspect an error in the ledger.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4344
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
March 8, 2024 - 2:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

RickC said

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

A Sporting Rear sight AND a Lyman 21 on the same gun?  Although the factory did not prohibit stupid sight combinations if so ordered by the customer, I would suspect an error in the ledger.

  

Clarence – very interesting thought.  An error in the ledger – meaning the rifle was never shipped with a Lyman receiver sight – and hence never drilled for one – would suggest someone later added a receiver sight – and drilled through the lettering – which Winchester (supposedly) would not have done.  

It sounds like a neat rifle and cool that it letters as an antique.  In fact, I think there lies the answer to your question about why that the address stops at Jan.25.98.  Rifles made slightly later than yours will have the Aug.23.98 patent date – your rifle was made before that patent date came into use.

Avatar
Great Basin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 492
Member Since:
November 27, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
March 8, 2024 - 2:45 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

RickC said

steelslide said

“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

  

I’ve observed a number of model 1895’s that letter with Lyman 21 and 38 receiver sights.  It’s common for the rear mounting hole to be drilled through the address mark on the receivers.  There are pictures of one in Kassab and Dunbar’s 1895 book.  Mark

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4344
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
March 8, 2024 - 3:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mark Douglas said

RickC said

steelslide said

“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

  

I’ve observed a number of model 1895’s that letter with Lyman 21 and 38 receiver sights.  It’s common for the rear mounting hole to be drilled through the address mark on the receivers.  There are pictures of one in Kassab and Dunbar’s 1895 book.  Mark

  

Mark – 

That’s helpful information.  Given the prominence of M1895’s in your collection, you would know Smile

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 618
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
March 8, 2024 - 3:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mark Douglas said

RickC said

steelslide said

“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

  

I’ve observed a number of model 1895’s that letter with Lyman 21 and 38 receiver sights.  It’s common for the rear mounting hole to be drilled through the address mark on the receivers.  There are pictures of one in Kassab and Dunbar’s 1895 book.  Mark

  

Thanks Mark. 

 Rick C 

   

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 317
Member Since:
November 9, 2008
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
11
March 8, 2024 - 4:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

It’s strange, that it letters with the sight and is drilled through the roll stamp, usually when you see that they have the wrong sight (DA), the shorter one for the 94, if it has the correct hole spacing for the WR sight, then I would say it’s correct and left the factory like that

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
March 8, 2024 - 6:43 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

RickC said

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

A Sporting Rear sight AND a Lyman 21 on the same gun?  Although the factory did not prohibit stupid sight combinations if so ordered by the customer, I would suspect an error in the ledger.

  

Again, your “suspect an error in the ledger” comment is an error on your part.  I have stated this many times in the past in reply to your false assertions concerning this very topic… The fact is that Winchester more often than not, installed a standard rear sporting sight when a peep sight was special ordered.  It was standard practice… whether you agree with it or not.  I could post hundreds of examples as listed in the factory ledger records that disprove your “error in the ledger” comment”.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
March 8, 2024 - 6:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

RickC said

steelslide said

“Now the question. The rear hole for the “climin” Lyman was drilled through the address markings (thru the “5” of Jan 25 I believe) something, according to my 1894/95 Arthur Pirkle book page 210 the factory would not do. If the gun letters as having the Lyman receiver sight factory installed why would they drill and tap through the address marking. Now having said that I have looked at all the listed address markings in the Pirkle book and the Madis book and cant find this exact marking that stops at Jan 25. Can any one shed some light or a possible explanation.”

I don’t think this part of steelslides inquiry was ever answered so rather than start a new thread can anyone advise on the above?

  

Rick,

As Mark has stated, Winchester did indeed drill through the stamped markings on some models and guns.  I believe that it is more prevalent on some modes (the 1895) than it is on others, but I know of other models that also had factory markings covered or drilled through to mount sights or telescopes.  One of our members owns a Single Shot rifle that had the barrel drilled & tapped by the factory to mount an A5 telescope… they drilled right through the address marking on the top flat of the barrel for the front scope block.   

I suspect that at least some of the instances where the factory drilled holes through the markings were as a result of a modification to the order for the gun, or an order was received for a gun specifying a special sight or telescope and Winchester simply took a gun out of warehouse stock and modified it before shipping it out.

Having stated the above, one should always very carefully examine any Winchester that has holes drilled & tapped through a factory marking.  Usually, it is relatively easy to see the physical difference between factory machining and “Joe Smith” the gunsmith’s work.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4344
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
March 10, 2024 - 12:56 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

All very informative and interesting.  Thanks Bert!

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: cj57, clarence
Guest(s) 72
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6522
TXGunNut: 5190
Chuck: 4669
steve004: 4344
1873man: 4330
Big Larry: 2359
twobit: 2323
mrcvs: 1773
TR: 1731
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12926
Posts: 112694

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1791
Members: 8935
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation