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Steve,
Winchester referred to the Model 71 rifles with checkered stocks as a “Special”
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
TXGunNut said
I sold my “Border Rifle” 1894 in 30WCF at last year’s Cody show. I never applied that label but after following this thread I suppose it fit. I have no doubt its 1912 DOM, 20” octagon barrel and generally rough condition qualified it as a possible participant in the revolution.
If so, how did it, or any of the others, wind up back in the this country? It would be worth more in Mexico, where guns are hard to get, than in this country.
Bert H. said
Steve,Winchester referred to the Model 71 rifles with checkered stocks as a “Special”
Bert
Thanks Bert!
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
TXGunNut said
I sold my “Border Rifle” 1894 in 30WCF at last year’s Cody show. I never applied that label but after following this thread I suppose it fit. I have no doubt its 1912 DOM, 20” octagon barrel and generally rough condition qualified it as a possible participant in the revolution.If so, how did it, or any of the others, wind up back in the this country? It would be worth more in Mexico, where guns are hard to get, than in this country.
I have no way of knowing exactly how firearms moved around in those days but keep in mind this was a hundred years ago.
Mike
TXGunNut said
I have no way of knowing exactly how firearms moved around in those days but keep in mind this was a hundred years ago.
Mike
Still, the usual flow of guns was from here to there, just as the flow of dope & job seekers (excuse me, “asylum” seekers) is from there to here.
clarence said
TXGunNut said
I sold my “Border Rifle” 1894 in 30WCF at last year’s Cody show. I never applied that label but after following this thread I suppose it fit. I have no doubt its 1912 DOM, 20” octagon barrel and generally rough condition qualified it as a possible participant in the revolution.If so, how did it, or any of the others, wind up back in the this country? It would be worth more in Mexico, where guns are hard to get, than in this country.
George Madis’ father (with young George in tow) routinely made trips into Mexico and hauled back dozens of old Winchesters every trip. They made a business out of it. At the time they were doing it, there were very minimal restrictions for U.S. citizens crossing the border, and it was long before the GCA of 1968, so there were not any restrictions on bringing back U.S. manufactured old lever action rifles.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
Still, the usual flow of guns was from here to there, just as the flow of dope & job seekers (excuse me, “asylum” seekers) is from there to here.
Not true for old guns. If you are referring to modern firearms, then I agree that the flow was southerly.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
George Madis’ father (with young George in tow) routinely made trips into Mexico and hauled back dozens of old Winchesters every trip. They made a business out of it. At the time they were doing it, there were very minimal restrictions for U.S. citizens crossing the border, and it was long before the GCA of 1968, so there were not any restrictions on bringing back U.S. manufactured old lever action rifles.
Well, that’s news to me–gun-running being the Madis family business. But even that fact is weak evidence the ones they brought back ever rode with Pancho Villa.
clarence said
Well, that’s news to me–gun-running being the Madis family business. But even that fact is weak evidence the ones they brought back ever rode with Pancho Villa.
In the Winter 2004 Collector there is a story/tribute to George Madis written by Tommy Rholes. It discusses George’s Mexico days – no doubt he brought a lot of Winchesters and other guns back from there – no mention of Pancho Villa or border guns.
Online
I took a few photos of my so-called “border model” 1894. It falls right into the 1912 serial number range.
Don
Bert H. said
Not true for old guns. If you are referring to modern firearms, then I agree that the flow was southerly.
US modern guns , mostly all handguns are flowing north as well. Handguns are heavily restricted in Canada so the drug dealers get them mostly from the US through our porous border. Not a week goes by that some of these big city arsepicks are arrested with unregistered and unlicenced handguns in my small city. It is a big problem but the government seems to pick the low hanging fruit and further restrict the law abiding handgun owners to solve the problem.
Hi ‘Border Gun’ is a generic term that was used for 20 inch barrel Rifles for 1873,1892, and1894 models. It has been used for yonks . James Gordon had a page in his 1873 book (244) on Border guns, George Madis mentioned 20 inch barrel inch barrel rifles as popular in the South West. Its just a term that was used to discribe a well used short Rifle that was common in that area and time. Madis would know, he spent a lot of time there in his younger days. That is my thoughts any way. Eric
Eric Ryan said
Hi ‘Border Gun’ is a generic term that was used for 20 inch barrel Rifles for 1873,1892, and1894 models. It has been used for yonks . James Gordon had a page in his 1873 book (244) on Border guns, George Madis mentioned 20 inch barrel inch barrel rifles as popular in the South West. Its just a term that was used to discribe a well used short Rifle that was common in that area and time.
I can’t fathom why these achieved popularity anywhere. So you don’t care about the longer brl (& greater sight radius) & larger mag capacity of a standard rifle? You want something lighter & handier, even if it may be a bit less steady? Winchester makes exactly what you’re looking for, the standard SRC. True, it comes with the useless, noisy, sling ring, but that can easily be “deleted” as many of them were, & has an easier to use rear sight, I think, & best of all, a MUCH superior buttstock. So why do you, instead, choose a so-called “short rifle”? Anyone care to explain the logic behind that choice?
clarence said
Eric Ryan said
Hi ‘Border Gun’ is a generic term that was used for 20 inch barrel Rifles for 1873,1892, and1894 models. It has been used for yonks . James Gordon had a page in his 1873 book (244) on Border guns, George Madis mentioned 20 inch barrel inch barrel rifles as popular in the South West. Its just a term that was used to discribe a well used short Rifle that was common in that area and time.I can’t fathom why these achieved popularity anywhere. So you don’t care about the longer brl (& greater sight radius) & larger mag capacity of a standard rifle? You want something lighter & handier, even if it may be a bit less steady? Winchester makes exactly what you’re looking for, the standard SRC. True, it comes with the useless, noisy, sling ring, but that can easily be “deleted” as many of them were, & has an easier to use rear sight, I think, & best of all, a MUCH superior buttstock. So why do you, instead, choose a so-called “short rifle”? Anyone care to explain the logic behind that choice?
I have to totally agree with Clarence here on this. I really don’t know why other than someone preferred to have an octagon 20” barrel ? ??♂️
Bert H. said
George Madis’ father (with young George in tow) routinely made trips into Mexico and hauled back dozens of old Winchesters every trip. They made a business out of it. At the time they were doing it, there were very minimal restrictions for U.S. citizens crossing the border, and it was long before the GCA of 1968, so there were not any restrictions on bringing back U.S. manufactured old lever action rifles.
Actually Bert, George and I had quite a conversation about that when he came out to Australia in july 86 for a Winchester Show in Sydney.
It wasn’t dozens, it was 1000s. On One particular boarder crossing an inspector got a bit curious as to why they were carrying so many guns and had them lay them all out on the road. Among them was a 1 of 1000. He told them he would let them through if he could pick one for himself. There were winchesters Marlins Colts etc, and to their amazement he picked an old blunderbuss worth $5 at the time.
George signing his book for a very young me.
Tony.
Great photo and story! I met him in Allentown PA early in my collecting, late 80s-90, the east coast WCA show. I got my first 86 at a local shop that I was working PT, a 33 TD and was hooked. I went to the show hoping to get a 45-70, they were high back then! The Perry’s from WY had their incredible 86 collection! Talked to them for an hr. and their friend George Madis came by and they introduced him to me, it was cool. I left them and went looking for that 45-70, I found a guy with a standard 26″ rd, FM for 1500, I only had 900, offered it to the dealer, while emptying my pockets, the guy said it’s Sunday, take it. I was so happy I grabbed it and ran back to the Perry’s display to show it off! George was still there and he and Mr. Perry laughed at how fast I found one. It was nothing to write home about, honest gun turning brown, nice bore and wood. He looked at it and said it was a nice start!
Personally, if I had to pick between a short rifle and a carbine I’d pick the short rifle. I like the looks of a short rifle better than a carbine. I like octagon barrels and rifle butts.
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