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Could the experts out there give me a history of the model 1894 Border Rifle?
There is no “history” that I am aware of, just as there was no such thing as a Model 1894 “Border Rifle”.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I added “model 1894″ so some one would not ask me ” what model are you asking about.” I have talked to Winchester collectors and they have called short rifles that originated from the southwest, border rifles. What do you suppose those collectors were talking about?
texarkana said
Could the experts out there give me a history of the model 1894 Border Rifle?
Which so-called “1894 Border Rifle” are you referring to?
One like this?
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/1894-winchester-short-rifle.htm
Or this?
texarkana said
the one from antique arms
I have an 1894 in the same exact configuration in my collection, but serialized in 1912. From what I have heard, many of these 1894 20-inch short rifles were popular among border patrol agents along the U.S. and Mexico border. But I think that’s a lot of speculation. I have not found any proof nor any further information on the topic.
I’m not sure why anyone would refer to an 1894 “short rifle” as a border rifle, other than the fact that it was popular along the Mexican border during the Poncho Villa era. Several hundred Winchesters were warehoused in southern Texas, after being confiscated from Villa’s men. This cache was discovered in the early 60’s (I believe) and purchased by the Flagler Gun Clinic in Florida. many of these Winchesters were 1894 model short rifles, with 20″ barrels. All of these guns were HARD used to say the least. Flagler converted many of the 1892’s he purchased in that lot, to .44 magnum.
I’ve heard the name going back decades. Colloquial, to a region? Don’t know. Correct? Don’t know. Proper? Don’t know. That doesn’t mean anything, other than yes, the name is and has been out there.
Well being from somewhat close to the region, calling south Texas home. I have worked on the border from Brownsville to Ojinaga Mx (thats about 700 miles) Ive encountered border Patrol on the daily basis, from horseback, fourwheelers, Tahoes, and checkpoints. The short rifle never had much meaning to me. Being aware of the Pancho Villa saga and this new evidence of a nickname ITS A MUST THAT I ACQUIRE one of these said “BORDER RIFLES”. Every time I get a new 94′ SRC thats 100 years old and well worn I hold it in my hands and say out loud “I wander how many mescans and indians you have shot at”. The last documented indian attacks in my general region were as recent as 1920.
I happen to have in My collection Mod. ’94 ser# 602387 which is a 20″ r.b.-f.m. rifle. Iwonder does that mean I have a “border rifle” up here in Canada. Just kidding of course, honestly I,ve never heard that term before, which just goes to prove I don’t know everything, yet.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said
I,ve never heard that term before, which just goes to prove I don’t know everything, yet.
I’ve done some cursory Google searches on the term and the best I come up with (other than an unrelated European military outfit) is some EMF and other Uberti clones of the Winchesters that they called border rifles. This goes back about 20 years. I also found several auction sellers of real Winchesters referring to their rifles as border rifles.
My question is, was that a marketing idea some sales people pulled out of their posterior? Or did they have some historical impetus for naming their clone?
I’ve been a Winchester fan since the 1960s and I know I’ve heard the term used for Winchesters, before the clones really became a thing. Gun magazines? Bill Jordan? Not sure. My research has ended.
Maybe we should all agree to never use of the term since Winchester never marketed such a weapon?
The real surprise for me is people saying they’ve never heard it before. That’s different from people who have heard it but don’t like it for some un-articulated reason. Oh well, that’s my five cents (inflation).
November 7, 2015
Offline
According to my informal research a “border rifle” could be almost anything. I think it’s a marketing term that conflicts with what we should know by now; buy the rifle, not the story.
Mike
I never considered “border rifle” as a story, so much as a style. Kind of like “trapper”. I always figured that as a style and not a carbine that was used by a trapper. But as I’m quick to admit, I’m no expert.
Dear sirs.
I am 65 yrs old , my father is 85.
My grandfather died in 1958 .
He fought in Mexican war .
I have his 1918 Winchester model 1894
In wcf 30-30 short border model.
I’m proud to say it is with great respect.
My grandfather would also deal and trade with Comanche Indians of the area.
Along the Del Rio Tex border since we are from across Del Rio Tex.
What is the serial number on your Model 1894? Is it a “Rifle” or a “Carbine” ?
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I’ve heard the term and it’s actually referred to as “border models”. a term used by old time collectors back in the day for 20 inch rifles popular in the southwest along the Mexican border. George madis used the term a lot. I recall after his passing I was talking to pat madis about different things etc. and mentioned a short rifle and she said george loved those “border models”
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
I understand down Texas way, Model 1894, “Trappers” were referred to by some as, “Sheriff’s.” Interestingly, both terms are simply made-up terms. To my knowledge, Winchester did not use the term, “short rifle.” As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, Winchester did not use the term, “saddle ring carbine” but they did use the term, “carbine.” However, if you have a 20 inch barreled M71 or M64 (almost always referred to as carbines) you would not be using a term Winchester used. Descriptively, they are, “short rifles” but Winchester didn’t call them that either. If I recall correctly, a M71 with a Winchester barrel was termed by Winchester, “Model 71 with 20 inch barrel.” They also referred to both the 20 and 24 inch versions as rifles. While we’re at it, Winchester didn’t use the term deluxe. A M64 with checkering was referred to as a, “deer rifle.” So, the typical nomenclature we hear, “M64 Deluxe Carbine” are both made-up terms. Off the top of my head, I’m not recalling that Winchester called a checkered M71 as a “deer rifle”?
Please correct me on any of the above it I am in error.
JEREMY S. said
I’ve heard the term and it’s actually referred to as “border models”. a term used by old time collectors back in the day for 20 inch rifles popular in the southwest along the Mexican border. George madis used the term a lot. I recall after his passing I was talking to pat madis about different things etc. and mentioned a short rifle and she said george loved those “border models”
Yes Jeremy border model is the exact term used that I read about awhile back.
“There is a reason for this which I don’t have time to go into but enough of them have turned up along the Texas/Mexico Border to earn the nickname “Border Models”. That said, its configuration and date of manufacture coincide perfectly with Northern Mexico during the Revolution. This one was made in 1912 (572,000) in the early years of the Mexican hostilities which started around October 1910 and lasted into 1917. Model 1894’s found in the 500,000 and 600,000 serial ranges are in my opinion prime real estate for the Mexican Revolution, especially if they’re well-worn carbines. There were basically Three Revolutionary Factions seeking to overthrow the Gov’t of Mexico; Zapata in the South, Carranza’s Constitutionalist Army in the North, and Pancho Villas Army also in the North. From there, it was basically a Battle Royale with Carranza coming out on top over Zapata and Villa until he was assasinated in 1920. Being closest to the US Border, it seems one of the latter two Armies would have had a better chance at acquiring these Winchesters. Zapata in the South had the most trouble equipping his Army. Over the years, I’ve studied hundreds of photographs from the Mexican Revolution and can say that the most commonly seen weapon in images are German Mausers and the Model 1894 Winchester, especially the Saddle Ring Carbines. You might find a photo of a Revolutionary with a Model 1894 Short Rifle for every Hundred you’ll see holding a Saddle Ring Carbine.”
November 7, 2015
Offline
I sold my “Border Rifle” 1894 in 30WCF at last year’s Cody show. I never applied that label but after following this thread I suppose it fit. I have no doubt its 1912 DOM, 20” octagon barrel and generally rough condition qualified it as a possible participant in the revolution. I don’t know, I purchased it from Ft Worth Cabela’s and they purchased it from an estate so we’ll probably never know.
Mike
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