Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
1894 Assembly Numbers
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 202
Member Since:
August 6, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
May 11, 2014 - 8:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I went to Tulsa a couple weeks ago and fell in love with a beautiful 1894 SRC. Serial number 92419. I have looked at hundreds of old Winchesters and the finish on this one fooled me. The finish was a very, very nice Winchester blue with a little honest wear. Beautiful case colors on the hammer and lever. I called Cody and it came back as a 30 WCF. This post isn’t about how dumb I was for not noticing a few thing but about the info and markings I’ve found. After disassembly I found an assembly number(357) on the buttstock, hammer, lever, lower left tang and the forearm. One of the crazy things is that the hammer isn’t the early style widows peak. Under the barrel, which is a 3rd type 38-55 with NO proof mark, it has: 38-55, VP, 3,clover leaf, and a punch dot with a W. There is no date under the barrel. It also has a large "H" on the face of the receiver under the barrel.
So heres my take, it was sent back for refurb and barrel change to 38-55. Why else would it have assembly numbers on everything and have the wrong hammer? Any ideas guys?

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10641
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
May 11, 2014 - 10:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mike,

Did it have an "R&R" in the records? If not, you should assume that somebody other than Winchester altered it.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 77
Member Since:
May 5, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
May 12, 2014 - 10:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

who had it? I look preety hard for 94s and dont remember that one.

Avatar
South Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1041
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
May 12, 2014 - 11:39 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Mike,

Just from my observations, not the gospel, all the assembly numbers stamped on internal parts on 1894’s and 1892’s have been two digits with inspector mark (triangle) close by in most cases, or sometimes a symbol (on the under side of the upper tang, or on the bolt). Or, you may find a single letter like "K" or "S", always in capitals, in most cases accompanied by the triangle inspector mark. I have seen the "H" stamped on the receiver face under the forearm on several guns, not out of the ordinary. The markings under the barrel sound normal–there are a number of symbols, letters, or punch marks that are common.
Forearm wood is sometimes stamped with an assembly number but in all cases, except one, they were two digit numbers. The exception was a 32-40 takedown that had a three digit assembly number on the end of the forearm in a larger font (same number as stamped on the buttstock). Half magazine forearms are stamped with "1/2 mag", and I think lightweight forearms are usually stamped with abbreviation for lightweight.

Most cases, if you find an assembly number on the lower tang, it will also be applied on the buttstock wood, sometimes the buttplate, but I have not found that same assembly number on other parts of the gun so far. Ive seen three, four, and five digit numbers on these (all the same number or the last four numbers of the five digit assembly number).

I havent owned a gun that lettered with an R&R, so I cant verify if assembly numbers were applied to various parts repaired/replaced under an R&R order.

As Bert mentioned, it would sure clear things up had it had an R&R listed with the letter. The barrel change, hammer change, and 3 digit assembly number on these select parts bring originality into question.

If you can, post a photo of the various parts with these assembly numbers (also assembly number stamps), and photo of the hammer an lever, to see what youve got and maybe figure this out. The wood could have been upgraded/replaced and the hammer/lever re-cased????

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
🇨🇦🇺🇸
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 498
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
October 3, 2023 - 8:59 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

1892takedown said

Most cases, if you find an assembly number on the lower tang, it will also be applied on the buttstock wood, sometimes the buttplate, but I have not found that same assembly number on other parts of the gun so far. Ive seen three, four, and five digit numbers on these (all the same number or the last four numbers of the five digit assembly number).

Thread from 2014 but these are the assembly numbers on my 1894 elw DOM 1899. 

IMG_3060.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_2995.jpegImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

 RickC 

   

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
October 4, 2023 - 5:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

RickC said

Thread from 2014 but these are the assembly numbers on my 1894 elw DOM 1899. 

IMG_3060.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_2995.jpegImage Enlarger

  

As it should.  Your gun has deluxe XXX wood and is a pistol grip.

Avatar
🇨🇦🇺🇸
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 498
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
October 4, 2023 - 6:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Yes you’re correct Chuck. And the forearm is original but I didn’t see any assembly numbers on it. Not sure how often they also stamped the forearms. 

 RickC 

   

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
October 4, 2023 - 6:27 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

RickC said
Yes you’re correct Chuck. And the forearm is original but I didn’t see any assembly numbers on it. Not sure how often they also stamped the forearms. 

  

Can’t answer that.  I always pull the stock off any gun I buy but not the forearm.  Unless it is an 85.  I don’t know if the forearms were marked?  My guess is maybe?  It definitely has to match the grade and color of the stock.  Now days all the parts are made out of the same piece of wood.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1059
Member Since:
December 21, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
October 5, 2023 - 6:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I have never seen a stamped forearm on a ’94, and I’ve seen a lot of ’em

W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10641
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
October 5, 2023 - 6:08 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Henry Mero said
I have never seen a stamped forearm on a ’94, and I’ve seen a lot of ’em

  

I have seen a few.  The stamped marking is found on the end grain underneath the magazine tube channel.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
South Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1041
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
October 9, 2023 - 11:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

Henry Mero said

I have never seen a stamped forearm on a ’94, and I’ve seen a lot of ’em

I have seen a few.  The stamped marking is found on the end grain underneath the magazine tube channel.

  

Agree with Bert, they do exist on rifles and carbines but not very common to find. 

Below is a forearm for an 1894 (unfortunately dont have the SN range)

1-4-2009-223.JPGImage Enlarger

 

Or on 1/2 mag carbines, they will be marked 1/2 MAG, and rarer is with an assembly #

32-WS-Button-Mag-vs-Standard.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Thought I had a few more examples but it would require a lot of lookin. 

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10641
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
October 10, 2023 - 12:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chris,

Thanks for posting the pictures !

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1059
Member Since:
December 21, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
October 10, 2023 - 7:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Yes, thanks for the pictures , I’ll have to go lookin’ now

W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 9
Member Since:
January 19, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
October 11, 2023 - 5:13 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

The museum where I volunteer has twelve Model 1894 and 94 carbines.  All have a stamp between the trigger and the frame opening.  I assumed these might be sub frame inspector marks.  Posts here imply that is incorrect and the stamps are assembly numbers.  Three of the carbines made in 1915 have the same stamp, the number “65”.  Two other 1915s are stamped “29.”  A 1959 is stamped “Y” and a 1961 is stamped “MO.”

These carbines were used by guards at the Wyoming Territorial Prison in Rawlins until that facility closed in the early 1980s.  The guns were subsequently donated to the Wyoming State Museum.

If these marks are assembly numbers, why the duplication?  I know that other makers used assembly numbers to be sure parts were correctly matched in the manufacturing process.

Thanks for any information or thoughts. 

  

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10641
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
October 11, 2023 - 5:39 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

[email protected] said
The museum where I volunteer has twelve Model 1894 and 94 carbines.  All have a stamp between the trigger and the frame opening.  I assumed these might be sub frame inspector marks.  Posts here imply that is incorrect and the stamps are assembly numbers.  Three of the carbines made in 1915 have the same stamp, the number “65”.  Two other 1915s are stamped “29.”  A 1959 is stamped “Y” and a 1961 is stamped “MO.”

These carbines were used by guards at the Wyoming Territorial Prison in Rawlins until that facility closed in the early 1980s.  The guns were subsequently donated to the Wyoming State Museum.

If these marks are assembly numbers, why the duplication?  I know that other makers used assembly numbers to be sure parts were correctly matched in the manufacturing process.

Thanks for any information or thoughts.   

The stamped markings you mention are not “assembly numbers”.  As you originally assumed, they are inspector stamps.  True assembly numbers were never stamped in openly visible locations.

Can you provide a URL to the Museum where you volunteer?  I would like to add those Model 1894/94 Carbines to my research survey.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 9
Member Since:
January 19, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
October 11, 2023 - 6:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Thank you for the prompt response.

https://wyomuseum.wyo.gov/

Our searchable database in PastPerfect is found here:

https://wyomuseum.catalogaccess.com/   I think you can search by accession number.  For this collection, G-1981.63

I have a spreadsheet with SN, date of manufacture, etc.  Can’t access it at the moment but will try to post it later.

Just paid my membership dues today.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10641
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
October 11, 2023 - 6:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

[email protected] said
Thank you for the prompt response.

https://wyomuseum.wyo.gov/

Our searchable database in PastPerfect is found here:

https://wyomuseum.catalogaccess.com/   I think you can search by accession number.  For this collection, G-1981.63

I have a spreadsheet with SN, date of manufacture, etc.  Can’t access it at the moment but will try to post it later.

Just paid my membership dues today.

  

If you can, please send the Excel spreadsheet to my personal email – [email protected]

Bert – WACA Historian

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
October 13, 2023 - 5:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

1892takedown said

Bert H. said

Henry Mero said

I have never seen a stamped forearm on a ’94, and I’ve seen a lot of ’em

I have seen a few.  The stamped marking is found on the end grain underneath the magazine tube channel.

  

Agree with Bert, they do exist on rifles and carbines but not very common to find. 

Below is a forearm for an 1894 (unfortunately dont have the SN range)

1-4-2009-223.JPGImage Enlarger

 

Or on 1/2 mag carbines, they will be marked 1/2 MAG, and rarer is with an assembly #

32-WS-Button-Mag-vs-Standard.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Thought I had a few more examples but it would require a lot of lookin. 

  

That half mag marking is really cool.  I had no idea.  I avoid using a screwdriver on my collection with rare exception.  I have half mag pieces here – and they may well have that marking.  That would be cool to see but I don’t want to do something that I end up wishing I hadn’t Embarassed

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
October 13, 2023 - 5:22 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

steve004 said

1892takedown said

Bert H. said

Henry Mero said

I have never seen a stamped forearm on a ’94, and I’ve seen a lot of ’em

I have seen a few.  The stamped marking is found on the end grain underneath the magazine tube channel.

  

Agree with Bert, they do exist on rifles and carbines but not very common to find. 

Below is a forearm for an 1894 (unfortunately dont have the SN range)

1-4-2009-223.JPGImage Enlarger

 

Or on 1/2 mag carbines, they will be marked 1/2 MAG, and rarer is with an assembly #

32-WS-Button-Mag-vs-Standard.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Thought I had a few more examples but it would require a lot of lookin. 

  

That half mag marking is really cool.  I had no idea.  I avoid using a screwdriver on my collection with rare exception.  I have half mag pieces here – and they may well have that marking.  That would be cool to see but I don’t want to do something that I end up wishing I hadn’t Embarassed

Has anyone ever seen a 2/3 or 3/4 mag marking?

  

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10641
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
October 13, 2023 - 6:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Steve,

Do to the fact that the numbers for the 2/3 and 3/4 mag Carbines are much smaller, I haven’t yet seen one with a 2/3 or 3/4 marking, but that doesn’t mean that don’t exist.  I don’t make a regular habit out of taking apart old Winchesters just to go looking for factory markings (except Single Shot rifles that is).

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6168
TXGunNut: 4889
Chuck: 4528
1873man: 4269
steve004: 4108
Big Larry: 2297
twobit: 2284
TR: 1698
mrcvs: 1673
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12526
Posts: 108818

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1731
Members: 8737
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation