1886 Saddle Ring Carbine 50 EXP Letter Not Available|Page 2|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Anthony said
I know and realize that sometimes we can get to be a little finicky and picky, as my old late friend, Larry, would accuse me of that often! Yet he would buy a lot of different stuff, to throw on his table at the local show, and complain, nothing was moving, cause the interest wasn’t there anymore. Not to get off track here or start an argument, as I could do very easily, as I like to view both sides! Buy or collect what you want, is my point!

Heck, “I wouldn’t throw her outa bed for eatin cookies”, neither! 

I would be happy to own this piece with the letter, and the extra barrel! 

Conundrum? , yeah! We could categorize this one in more than one way, and it’s good to see members stating they’re view points, as I’d like to hear more of this as a matter of fact! IMHO!

Heck! Like Waylon used to say, “I’ve Always Been Crazy”, as many of my friends can attest too!

Just my two Cents Worth!

Anthony

Tony: no matter how many cookie crumbs she left in the bed?  I’m just saying there’s a limit to anything

But in all seriousness, I do agree with Tony and I would be happy with the rifle as it is.  I’d be happier with a .33 WCF front end added.  I’d also be happy with the rifle and no letter.  It’s a bit of an irony as this rifle was made as a .50 Express and as it sits, it is a .50 express.  All the internals that were specific to an original .50 express are present with this rifle.  I’d much rather have a takedown M1886 in .50 express than in .33WCF (and many here know how fond I am of the .33 WCF).  

A final thought.  It can’t be proven that the original .50 express barrel didn’t make its way back to this rifle.  I’ve seen a few improbable examples where an original part has been reunited with a rifle.
 

 

  

Henry Mero said
Y a’, We got to talking about two different firearms here. On the rifle , I think the letter is “wonky” , as I’ve seen several similar in the past and owned a few and would love to own any of them . I have one coming that letters with a “burl maple” stock but some of the other features on the gun are not mentioned, so I’m waiting to get it “in hand” to determine bad gun or bad letter. 

  

Henry – 

I don’t think the wonky letter factor can be ruled out until the ledger can be further examined.  I have sympathy for those interpreting the ledgers as many times they are very crowded and at least to me, look difficult to interpret.  Just yesterday I was looking at a M1873 that had two museum letters with it.  One was a good bit older than the other one.  The older letter noted the presence of a set trigger; the newer letter did not mention a set trigger (and the rifle did have a set trigger).  

I have to agree with Bert’s take on this gun, He just put into much better words. I also believe it has fallen into deviant hands, as Ian pointed out, and that is where I stand at this time, like it or not.

I would still like to see it in hand to examine it. I think the tell all will be the factory address on the barrel and the stampings on the stock and lower tang.   

steve004 said

oldcrankyyankee said

I have to agree with Bert’s take on this gun, He just put into much better words. I also believe it has fallen into deviant hands, as Ian pointed out, and that is where I stand at this time, like it or not.

I would still like to see it in hand to examine it. I think the tell all will be the factory address on the barrel and the stampings on the stock and lower tang.   

  

Tom – yes it would be very helpful to give the rifle a very careful examination (with buttstock and forearm off), check the barrel address and all markings on the metal and just see if it all, “adds up.”  

  

Steve, of all the things I am inept to, and I know I have asked your thoughts on many guns, and I hope your wisdom has paid off. I just don’t see the math on this one.

cobra2858 said
I also have this 1886 50 EXP with a letter. It seems it went back to the factory for a smaller caliber, and the 50 Exp barrel subsequently put back on. I am posting pics for any thoughts. Thanks Bill

  

So as not to confuse with the original subject matter of this thread…I am replying to this specific post as it relates to this Model 1886 rifle.

I created this thread specifically because of this rifle:

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/whats-the-latest-return-or-return-repair-date-you-have-seen-on-a-factory-letter/

The reason being that if it was such that the records for R & R existed to not long after 1905, it makes it somewhat more likely that this was returned to .50 Express at the factory a few or several years subsequent to 1905, when the intents were as to function and not deviant for financial gain.  If the R & R records existed well into the teens, like it appears they do—although we have not established a specific latest possible R & R date for the Model 1886–it becomes increasingly unlikely that the work was factory.  By the 1920s, the Model 1886 was only chambered in .45-70 and .33 Winchester, and reconfiguring to .50 Express would be impractical and defy logic.

Thus, I think having a fifteen, or even ten, year window during this key time frame in which records existed and there is no R & R information for makes it unlikely this reconversion was factory work.

i should ask, how long have you owned this rifle?

And the bigger question is when was this done, and how did that come about?  It would have taken an expert to even think to look, and realise, that this rifle, although chambered in .33 Winchester, was tooled such that it was .50 Express.  More likely, I’m guessing, someone lettered their .33 Winchester and realized they hit pay dirt when it lettered as .50 Express.  The hard part would have been finding an orphan .50 Express barrel to place on this rifle.  Apparently, this was accomplished.  Either an original or modified to appear original.

Is there the possibility, in the interest of scholarship, you could disassemble the forearm from this rifle and post photographs of the underside of the barrel and markings, if any?

Bert H. said
Ian,

The latest dated “R&R” entry I have found (verified) thus for a Model 1886 is March 1919.  Based on the second factory letter below, it appears that the records were still in the warehouse as late as December 1921.

 

 

 

Bert

  

I think that records for this being available for the 1886 as late as 1921 makes it unlikely that this was reverted back to .50 Express at the factory.  Not to say it didn’t happen after 1921, but unlikely.