1886 Query|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Buttstock was swapped out?  When all Winchester parts are used, it can be difficult to detect what has been changed.  In fact, the only way we know some rifles have been altered is they have previously been viewed as existing in a different configuration than their current state.  Michael (twobit) has done a great amount of detective work in this regard.

I tried to

Bert H. said
It is my belief that the original 40-82 barrel was replaced with the 45-70 barrel when the rifle was returned and sent to Heere (he was a factory employee that specialized in reworking/modifying returned guns).  I have seen his name mentioned numerous times in the Single Shot ledger records.

Both the smooth steel and checkered steel shotgun butt plates with the widows peak can be swapped with the early hard rubber butt plates with the widows peak.  The screw hole patterns match on all three, and the stock inletting is the same.  I do believe that the original hard rubber plate was replaced in much more recent times with the smooth steel plate now on the rifle.

I have asked Scott to take down the barrel assembly and check the bottom of the barrel for the work order # 17042.  There is a very good possibility that it will be stamped on the barrel.

Bert

  

swap out a rubber buttplate with a steel one in my younger days and the widow’s peak was not a perfect match.  Hence, my response.

This was 25 years ago however, and maybe I had the wrong steel buttplate.  The hard rubber one was cracked.

If there was a change made to the rifle between 1908 and 1912, which appears to have been documented, why wouldn’t the barrel swap have been mentioned as well, as this is significant?  Which is why I am guessing a post 1912 swap.

Also note the “Winchester High Velocity” notation.  I’ve never known a .40-82 to have “high velocity” ammo  offered.  Both high velocity barrels and ammo were offered in .45-70 and .45-90 as minimums.  I would take it in conjunction with “Heere” that the barrel WAS changed at Winchester as result of those notations.  Tim

Bert H. said

mrcvs said

I tried to

Bert H. said

It is my belief that the original 40-82 barrel was replaced with the 45-70 barrel when the rifle was returned and sent to Heere (he was a factory employee that specialized in reworking/modifying returned guns).  I have seen his name mentioned numerous times in the Single Shot ledger records.

Both the smooth steel and checkered steel shotgun butt plates with the widows peak can be swapped with the early hard rubber butt plates with the widows peak.  The screw hole patterns match on all three, and the stock inletting is the same.  I do believe that the original hard rubber plate was replaced in much more recent times with the smooth steel plate now on the rifle.

I have asked Scott to take down the barrel assembly and check the bottom of the barrel for the work order # 17042.  There is a very good possibility that it will be stamped on the barrel.

Bert 

swap out a rubber buttplate with a steel one in my younger days and the widow’s peak was not a perfect match.  Hence, my response.

This was 25 years ago however, and maybe I had the wrong steel buttplate.  The hard rubber one was cracked.

If there was a change made to the rifle between 1908 and 1912, which appears to have been documented, why wouldn’t the barrel swap have been mentioned as well, as this is significant?  Which is why I am guessing a post 1912 swap.  

As was standard practice, Winchester very seldom ever documented in the ledger records what work was done to the guns that were returned or “R&R”.

The factory markings on the 45-70 barrel indicate that it is a pre-1912 production piece. In regard to the steel butt plate currently on the rifle, it is quite evident that it was fitted to the stock and then refinished (in recent times). Take note of the fact that it has zero bluing wear on it.

“Heere” (I believe his first name was Thomas) was the person who replaced J.P. Parker (J.P.P.).  Both of those fellows specialized in fitting new barrels to guns returned to the factory.

Bert

  

Yes, I did notice the lack of wear on the bluing of the buttplate.

That made me suspicious.

Niw, would a smooth steel buttplate have even been blued in 1908?  Or 1912?  When was the transition for this?

Non take down rifles were blued beginning August 1901.  This one would have been blued irrespective of condition.  But levers and triggers certainly were still case coloured in 1908.

Bert H. said

Scott Bailey said

Thanks to all for your responses and opinions. Lots of subtleties to these rifles.

With respect to the presence of a work order #17402, the bottom of the barrel was inspected with nothing found. Please see the attached image.

  

The work order number would have been stamped forward of the markings shown in your picture, and they are frequently found on one of the adjoining barrel flats.  The work order numbers were not always stamped on the replacement barrels.

Bert

  

I hate to highjack this thread, but I have to ask. I recently posted about an 86 ELW that was rebarreled, but had the original one with it. If you look at the pictures of the barrel that is not on the gun there is a 5 digit number, 78601. Could this be a work order number? Again this gun is outside the letterable range. If this number holds true, perhaps this gun was in fact modified to it’s current state as an ELW. 

Well I guess thats why someone else is going to own that gun, to much mystery behind it.