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April 10, 2024 - 12:36 am
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Gentlemen, 

Long time lurker and recent member to this great group. I’ve been interested in all things Winchester since boyhood having grown up with a Model 12 and a Model 63 both in the corner on standby for pest control, tools of the day from days gone by as it were. Over the years I’ve accumulated a few different models and enjoy looking at them as much as shooting them. 

Your comments and critique would be well received regarding the Winchester Model 1886 Rifle that I have owned for a dozen years or so. Initially I was under the impression that this was factory original in .45-70 and was disappointed to find out upon receiving the recent letter this is not the case.

Current Configuration

Serial No. 134450 Late variety first or second variation

Cal. .45-70

Takedown

26” Octagonal bbl.

Pointed heel steel Shotgun butt

I’m a bit confused and was wondering what do I really have here? Apparently the barrel was changed out at some time but there is no indication of it in the letter. It doesn’t have the mail order proof (P). I’m also questioning the shotgun butt, rubber and Winchester High Velocity notations. The steel shotgun butt currently fitted is awfully clean.

Thanks in advance for your comments

 

 

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April 10, 2024 - 12:45 am
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Scott,

Awesome set of pictures!  Other than the butt plate, that rifle looks like it is factory original.  Can you send me a scanned copy of the CFM factory letter (or post a picture of it)?

Bert – [email protected]

 

p.s. Happy to see you come out of the closet (lurker) and join in the frayCool

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April 10, 2024 - 3:09 am
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Here is the letter that should have accompanied the original posting. Still sorting the ins and outs of posting.

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April 10, 2024 - 3:41 am
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Scott,

I am not seeing a letter ??

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April 10, 2024 - 9:21 am
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One more time….IMG_3106.jpegImage Enlarger

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April 10, 2024 - 1:02 pm
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It doesn’t say anything about an R & R in the letter, but it does state a few configuration points after the return in 1908 and then being shipped again in 1912.  But problematic about that even is the fact it letters with a rubber shotgun butt and now has a smooth steel butt plate on it as well.

My guess is someone along the way wanted the more popular .45-70 cartridge and changed the barrel, but that doesn’t explain the steel shotgun buttplate, which would not be a 1:1 fit from the factory rubber buttplate that should be installed.

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April 10, 2024 - 4:35 pm
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Buttstock was swapped out?  When all Winchester parts are used, it can be difficult to detect what has been changed.  In fact, the only way we know some rifles have been altered is they have previously been viewed as existing in a different configuration than their current state.  Michael (twobit) has done a great amount of detective work in this regard.

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April 10, 2024 - 4:53 pm
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It is my belief that the original 40-82 barrel was replaced with the 45-70 barrel when the rifle was returned and sent to Heere (he was a factory employee that specialized in reworking/modifying returned guns).  I have seen his name mentioned numerous times in the Single Shot ledger records.

Both the smooth steel and checkered steel shotgun butt plates with the widows peak can be swapped with the early hard rubber butt plates with the widows peak.  The screw hole patterns match on all three, and the stock inletting is the same.  I do believe that the original hard rubber plate was replaced in much more recent times with the smooth steel plate now on the rifle.

I have asked Scott to take down the barrel assembly and check the bottom of the barrel for the work order # 17042.  There is a very good possibility that it will be stamped on the barrel.

Bert

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April 10, 2024 - 5:15 pm
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I tried to

Bert H. said
It is my belief that the original 40-82 barrel was replaced with the 45-70 barrel when the rifle was returned and sent to Heere (he was a factory employee that specialized in reworking/modifying returned guns).  I have seen his name mentioned numerous times in the Single Shot ledger records.

Both the smooth steel and checkered steel shotgun butt plates with the widows peak can be swapped with the early hard rubber butt plates with the widows peak.  The screw hole patterns match on all three, and the stock inletting is the same.  I do believe that the original hard rubber plate was replaced in much more recent times with the smooth steel plate now on the rifle.

I have asked Scott to take down the barrel assembly and check the bottom of the barrel for the work order # 17042.  There is a very good possibility that it will be stamped on the barrel.

Bert

  

swap out a rubber buttplate with a steel one in my younger days and the widow’s peak was not a perfect match.  Hence, my response.

This was 25 years ago however, and maybe I had the wrong steel buttplate.  The hard rubber one was cracked.

If there was a change made to the rifle between 1908 and 1912, which appears to have been documented, why wouldn’t the barrel swap have been mentioned as well, as this is significant?  Which is why I am guessing a post 1912 swap.

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April 10, 2024 - 6:26 pm
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mrcvs said
I tried to

Bert H. said

It is my belief that the original 40-82 barrel was replaced with the 45-70 barrel when the rifle was returned and sent to Heere (he was a factory employee that specialized in reworking/modifying returned guns).  I have seen his name mentioned numerous times in the Single Shot ledger records.

Both the smooth steel and checkered steel shotgun butt plates with the widows peak can be swapped with the early hard rubber butt plates with the widows peak.  The screw hole patterns match on all three, and the stock inletting is the same.  I do believe that the original hard rubber plate was replaced in much more recent times with the smooth steel plate now on the rifle.

I have asked Scott to take down the barrel assembly and check the bottom of the barrel for the work order # 17042.  There is a very good possibility that it will be stamped on the barrel.

Bert 

swap out a rubber buttplate with a steel one in my younger days and the widow’s peak was not a perfect match.  Hence, my response.

This was 25 years ago however, and maybe I had the wrong steel buttplate.  The hard rubber one was cracked.

If there was a change made to the rifle between 1908 and 1912, which appears to have been documented, why wouldn’t the barrel swap have been mentioned as well, as this is significant?  Which is why I am guessing a post 1912 swap.  

As was standard practice, Winchester very seldom ever documented in the ledger records what work was done to the guns that were returned or “R&R”.

The factory markings on the 45-70 barrel indicate that it is a pre-1912 production piece. In regard to the steel butt plate currently on the rifle, it is quite evident that it was fitted to the stock and then refinished (in recent times). Take note of the fact that it has zero bluing wear on it.

“Heere” (I believe his first name was Thomas) was the person who replaced J.P. Parker (J.P.P.).  Both of those fellows specialized in fitting new barrels to guns returned to the factory.

Bert

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April 10, 2024 - 6:52 pm
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Also note the “Winchester High Velocity” notation.  I’ve never known a .40-82 to have “high velocity” ammo  offered.  Both high velocity barrels and ammo were offered in .45-70 and .45-90 as minimums.  I would take it in conjunction with “Heere” that the barrel WAS changed at Winchester as result of those notations.  Tim

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April 10, 2024 - 6:54 pm
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tim tomlinson said
Also note the “Winchester High Velocity” notation.  I’ve never known a .40-82 to have “high velocity” ammo offered.  Both high velocity barrels and ammo were offered in .45-70 and .45-90 as minimums.  I would take it in conjunction with “Heere” that the barrel WAS changed at Winchester as result of those notations.  Tim

  

I concur! Smile

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April 10, 2024 - 7:14 pm
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Bert H. said

mrcvs said

I tried to

Bert H. said

It is my belief that the original 40-82 barrel was replaced with the 45-70 barrel when the rifle was returned and sent to Heere (he was a factory employee that specialized in reworking/modifying returned guns).  I have seen his name mentioned numerous times in the Single Shot ledger records.

Both the smooth steel and checkered steel shotgun butt plates with the widows peak can be swapped with the early hard rubber butt plates with the widows peak.  The screw hole patterns match on all three, and the stock inletting is the same.  I do believe that the original hard rubber plate was replaced in much more recent times with the smooth steel plate now on the rifle.

I have asked Scott to take down the barrel assembly and check the bottom of the barrel for the work order # 17042.  There is a very good possibility that it will be stamped on the barrel.

Bert 

swap out a rubber buttplate with a steel one in my younger days and the widow’s peak was not a perfect match.  Hence, my response.

This was 25 years ago however, and maybe I had the wrong steel buttplate.  The hard rubber one was cracked.

If there was a change made to the rifle between 1908 and 1912, which appears to have been documented, why wouldn’t the barrel swap have been mentioned as well, as this is significant?  Which is why I am guessing a post 1912 swap.  

As was standard practice, Winchester very seldom ever documented in the ledger records what work was done to the guns that were returned or “R&R”.

The factory markings on the 45-70 barrel indicate that it is a pre-1912 production piece. In regard to the steel butt plate currently on the rifle, it is quite evident that it was fitted to the stock and then refinished (in recent times). Take note of the fact that it has zero bluing wear on it.

“Heere” (I believe his first name was Thomas) was the person who replaced J.P. Parker (J.P.P.).  Both of those fellows specialized in fitting new barrels to guns returned to the factory.

Bert

  

Yes, I did notice the lack of wear on the bluing of the buttplate.

That made me suspicious.

Niw, would a smooth steel buttplate have even been blued in 1908?  Or 1912?  When was the transition for this?

Non take down rifles were blued beginning August 1901.  This one would have been blued irrespective of condition.  But levers and triggers certainly were still case coloured in 1908.

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April 10, 2024 - 7:45 pm
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The smooth steel shotgun butt plates were always blued, irrespective of when they were manufactured.

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April 10, 2024 - 7:56 pm
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Thanks to all for your responses and opinions. Lots of subtleties to these rifles.

With respect to the presence of a work order #17402, the bottom of the barrel was inspected with nothing found. Please see the attached image.IMG_3080-1.jpegImage Enlarger

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April 10, 2024 - 8:13 pm
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Scott Bailey said
Thanks to all for your responses and opinions. Lots of subtleties to these rifles.

With respect to the presence of a work order #17402, the bottom of the barrel was inspected with nothing found. Please see the attached image.IMG_3080-1.jpegImage Enlarger

  

The work order number would have been stamped forward of the markings shown in your picture, and they are frequently found on one of the adjoining barrel flats.  The work order numbers were not always stamped on the replacement barrels.

Bert

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April 12, 2024 - 12:20 am
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Bert H. said

Scott Bailey said

Thanks to all for your responses and opinions. Lots of subtleties to these rifles.

With respect to the presence of a work order #17402, the bottom of the barrel was inspected with nothing found. Please see the attached image.IMG_3080-1.jpegImage Enlarger

  

The work order number would have been stamped forward of the markings shown in your picture, and they are frequently found on one of the adjoining barrel flats.  The work order numbers were not always stamped on the replacement barrels.

Bert

  

I hate to highjack this thread, but I have to ask. I recently posted about an 86 ELW that was rebarreled, but had the original one with it. If you look at the pictures of the barrel that is not on the gun there is a 5 digit number, 78601. Could this be a work order number? Again this gun is outside the letterable range. If this number holds true, perhaps this gun was in fact modified to it’s current state as an ELW. 

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April 12, 2024 - 12:33 am
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oldcrankyyankee said

Bert H. said

Scott Bailey said

Thanks to all for your responses and opinions. Lots of subtleties to these rifles.

With respect to the presence of a work order #17402, the bottom of the barrel was inspected with nothing found. Please see the attached image.IMG_3080-1.jpegImage Enlarger

  

The work order number would have been stamped forward of the markings shown in your picture, and they are frequently found on one of the adjoining barrel flats.  The work order numbers were not always stamped on the replacement barrels.

Bert

  

I hate to highjack this thread, but I have to ask. I recently posted about an 86 ELW that was rebarreled, but had the original one with it. If you look at the pictures of the barrel that is not on the gun there is a 5 digit number, 78601. Could this be a work order number? Again this gun is outside the letterable range. If this number holds true, perhaps this gun was in fact modified to it’s current state as an ELW. 

  

The number “78601” is most likely a work order number, but not because gun was modified to its present state.  The work order number would have been marked on the replacement barrel versus the barrel that was removed/replaced.

Bert

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April 12, 2024 - 12:43 am
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Well I guess thats why someone else is going to own that gun, to much mystery behind it.

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April 12, 2024 - 3:49 pm
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Scott Bailey said
Gentlemen, 

Long time lurker and recent member to this great group. I’ve been interested in all things Winchester since boyhood having grown up with a Model 12 and a Model 63 both in the corner on standby for pest control, tools of the day from days gone by as it were. Over the years I’ve accumulated a few different models and enjoy looking at them as much as shooting them. 

Your comments and critique would be well received regarding the Winchester Model 1886 Rifle that I have owned for a dozen years or so. Initially I was under the impression that this was factory original in .45-70 and was disappointed to find out upon receiving the recent letter this is not the case.

Current Configuration

Serial No. 134450 Late variety first or second variation

Cal. .45-70

Takedown

26” Octagonal bbl.

Pointed heel steel Shotgun butt

I’m a bit confused and was wondering what do I really have here? Apparently the barrel was changed out at some time but there is no indication of it in the letter. It doesn’t have the mail order proof (P). I’m also questioning the shotgun butt, rubber and Winchester High Velocity notations. The steel shotgun butt currently fitted is awfully clean.

Thanks in advance for your comments

 

 

DSCN5699.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3092.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3091.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3097.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3086.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3098.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3096.jpegImage EnlargerDSCN2232.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3095.jpegImage EnlargerDSCN2250.jpegImage EnlargerDSCN2252.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3080.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3083.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3084.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3085.jpegImage EnlargerDSCN2258.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_3099.jpegImage Enlarger

  

Scott – despite not everything adding up, I think you have a nice rifle.  And by the way, it’s always nice to have a long-time lurker emerge from the shadows and join the group Cool

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