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1886 deluxe on GB
March 14, 2019
1:44 pm
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TR,

Could be that the gun has been very well cared for over the years, I'm not sure. I think you're right, no simple answer.

Al

March 14, 2019
2:00 pm
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tionesta1 said

Here is a model 1886 where you can see the grain color and pattern through the checkering.  Is it restored?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/801832433

Al  

I see one very glaring (non factory original) issue with that rifle... and I am surprised that none of you caught it yet! 

Bert

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March 14, 2019
3:37 pm
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Bert, Lack of case coloring on the Swiss butt plate and cartridge cover on the receiver?

March 14, 2019
3:56 pm
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Bert H. said

I see one very glaring (non factory original) issue with that rifle... and I am surprised that none of you caught it yet! 

Bert  

Bert,

At first I thought it might be that the rubber recoil pad was added aftermarket, but the letter states "rubber pad".  Is it the rubber pad?

Thanks,

Al

March 14, 2019
4:09 pm
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tionesta1 said

Bert,

At first I thought it might be that the rubber recoil pad was added aftermarket, but the letter states "rubber pad".  Is it the rubber pad?

Thanks,

Al  

Usually a letter from this time period would state "Rubber Butt Plate" not pad based on my experience.  One thing you know for sure is that the rifle did not stand in a case on the red pad for the last 115 years without a flat spot on it!!!

 

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

March 14, 2019
4:28 pm
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TR said
 Al, The description on the gun says "light finish added". I like the gun and the wood would not bother me. Most of my guns are antique made in the 1870's & 80's, I asked the question because I don't know the answer. All my life I have asked questions in a attempt to gain knowledge. I am trying to determine if when I plainly see the grain in the checkering on a nice gun is it just well cared for or has it been cleaned and freshen. Maybe there is no simple answer. T/R  

I don't know the answer either. I have a couple more checkered guns in the very back of the safe.  I will check these out.

March 14, 2019
4:28 pm
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25-35 said
Bert, Lack of case coloring on the Swiss butt plate and cartridge cover on the receiver?  

The Swiss butt plates used by Winchester were nickel plated bronze. No, not the loading port cover.

Bert

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March 14, 2019
4:50 pm
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TR said
 Al, The description on the gun says "light finish added". I like the gun and the wood would not bother me. Most of my guns are antique made in the 1870's & 80's, I asked the question because I don't know the answer. All my life I have asked questions in a attempt to gain knowledge. I am trying to determine if when I plainly see the grain in the checkering on a nice gun is it just well cared for or has it been cleaned and freshen. Maybe there is no simple answer. T/R  

I have an 1894 deluxe that has seen very little use and you can see the grain through the checkering.  All original oil finish and checkering with no finish added.  It seems the checkering may darken over time with handling and use?  Here are photos of it from a previous forum thread:

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/favorite-1894/

Don

March 14, 2019
4:55 pm
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tionesta1 said

Bert,

At first I thought it might be that the rubber recoil pad was added aftermarket, but the letter states "rubber pad".  Is it the rubber pad?

Thanks,

Al  

Yes, it is the rubber recoil pad that is the problem... Specifically, that rifle was manufactured in 1904, which was 18-years before Winchester patented their own solid rubber recoil pad (June 1922).  The recoil pad currently on that rifle is a "Winchester" pad, and it is not original!  Prior to Winchester making their own solid red rubber recoil pads, they used Silver's recoil pads (as listed in their catalogs).

Bert

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March 14, 2019
5:37 pm
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Bert,

You are a wealth of knowledge.  Thanks.

Al

March 14, 2019
5:38 pm
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Bert H. said

Yes, it is the rubber recoil pad that is the problem... Specifically, that rifle was manufactured in 1904, which was 18-years before Winchester patented their own solid rubber recoil pad (June 1922).  The recoil pad currently on that rifle is a "Winchester" pad, and it is not original!  Prior to Winchester making their own solid red rubber recoil pads, they used Silver's recoil pads (as listed in their catalogs).

Bert  

Bert,

I've never seen a vintage 1900's Silver's recoil pad.  What do they look like?  Can you post a photo?  Just wanting to learn and know what to look for to determine originality.

Thanks,

Don 

March 14, 2019
5:48 pm
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deerhunter said

Bert,

I've never seen a vintage 1900's Silver's recoil pad.  What do they look like?  Can you post a photo?  Just wanting to learn and know what to look for to determine originality.

Thanks,

Don   

Found one on eBay.  I'm assuming they all look similar to this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-S-W-Silver-Co-Made-In-England-No-3-Best-London-Orange-Recoil-Pad/192846148985?hash=item2ce686b579:g:4HwAAOSwqpFcaudz

Don

March 14, 2019
7:15 pm
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 Bert, Thanks for the information. T/R

March 14, 2019
11:44 pm
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Bert H. said

Yes, it is the rubber recoil pad that is the problem... Specifically, that rifle was manufactured in 1904, which was 18-years before Winchester patented their own solid rubber recoil pad (June 1922).  The recoil pad currently on that rifle is a "Winchester" pad, and it is not original!  Prior to Winchester making their own solid red rubber recoil pads, they used Silver's recoil pads (as listed in their catalogs).

Bert  

So that being said, does that crash the whole value of the gun??? I understand originality, but would that rubber pad diminish the value that much that it must be noted?  How much in your opinion does that bring the value down?

March 15, 2019
12:58 am
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Additionally, what is the lifespan of a rubber recoil pad?  That is one component much more susceptible to the ravages of time relative to other components (wood & metal).

March 15, 2019
3:51 am
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Manuel said

So that being said, does that crash the whole value of the gun??? I understand originality, but would that rubber pad diminish the value that much that it must be noted?  How much in your opinion does that bring the value down?  

It does not "crash the whole value", but it certainly should be noted in the auction listing.  My personal opinion is that it reduces the value by 10-15%, and it casts a shadow on the rest of the rifle.  Somebody purposely removed the original (most likely poor condition) recoil pad, and then went to the trouble of putting a Winchester pad back on it... and then did not reveal that fact.

Bert

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