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My Dad, a WACA member who used to take me to the Cody show when we were both younger, has asked me to sell those of his remaining guns my brother and I aren’t keeping. Unfortunately, due to his advanced dementia, he can only give me limited info about the guns, and then sometimes it’s mixed up. most of his collection I know pretty well, but this 1885 Single Shot is one of the last guns he bought. I never learned my way around the 1885 world, so I’d like help learning about it, knowing what is special or unique about it (if anything), and finding a realistic value to try to sell it for.
It’s a High Wall, 29″ Octagon barrel, in .40-70 Sharps Straight. The bore is near perfect, but I believe dad had it relined. The serial number is 99XX, which according to George Madis in The Winchester Handbook dates it to 1887.
There is also a bullet mold (“40-330”) and a reloading hand tool with die, both Winchester marked. Could these have been original to the gun?
The stock has plenty of dings and some cracks that do not appear to me to be structural. The forend has no breaks, but seems pretty fragile in the thin areas where it wraps around the barrel. No real metal finish remaining – see photos.
What should I be measuring, checking, etc. to learn more about this gun and to determine its market value? Did I give enough info for anyone to offer an over-the-net rough appraisal?
We also have two boxes of Buffalo Arms ammo, of which Dad and a friend shot four rounds, so there’s 36 rounds loaded, 4 pieces of brass.
Worst case scenario, I’ll have BA sell it on consignment (unless anyone here can suggest a better way/place to sell it), but I’m doing a gun show or two this fall in Montana, and I’d like to try selling it myself first.
Thanks for any and all information you folks can offer.
As it turns out, I just happen to be a Winchester Single Shot student & collector.
The barrel length should be 30-inchs, and based on my research survey, the odds are extremely high that the serial number on your Single Shot rifle is 9920 which puts its date of manufacture as April 22, 1887.
Can you provide a clear close-up picture of the muzzle face and the breech face of the barrel? Also, the bottom of the action with the lever fully open.
The bullet mold and reloading tool would have been purchased separately from the rifle, but they are definitely of the same time period as the rifle.
If it is easier for you, you can email all of the pictures to me at – [email protected]
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Well, how ’bout that! Yes, it’s 9920. I must be in the right place for info (not that I doubted!).
Let me know if I can take any other photos to help you assess this rifle. I realize now that you asked for the bottom of the action and I focused on the tang/trigger area. I can take more photos after work today if that helps.
Thanks!
The pictures show me what I needed to see. The barrel has been relined. Can you measure the bore diameter? As originally manufactured by Winchester, the 40-70 Sharps Straight had a .403 diameter bore. Modern reproduction rifles made in 40-70 Sharps Straight usually have a .408 bore.
Please send all of the pictures you have to my email address – [email protected]
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks, Bert.
I sent all the photos to your email. I’ll post the rest below for public consumption 🙂
What’s the best way to measure the bore diameter?
Cossack said
Thanks, Bert.What’s the best way to measure the bore diameter?
Slug the bore, and then measure the slug.
That stated, in addition to the bore being relined, the barrel is not original to the rifle. The factory caliber marking on barrel is not correct for an early production Single Shot rifle chambered for the 40-70 Sharps Straight. It should look like this…
The “40-70 S.S.” caliber marking was not used until serial numbers were in the late 37000 range.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Interesting! Good to know. Is there any way to know if the rifle was originally chambered in .40-70 S. S. then?
Any idea what a reasonable asking price would be for this, or do we need to know more first?
I might still have a .45 round ball I can roll into a slug. Not sure, though, because I sold my .45 flinter a while back. I’ll find something, though.
steve004 said
I noted the Browning Brothers marking on the barrel.
I did too. I didn’t think much of it because I knew the ’85 was a Browning design. Would this marking not be on an early barrel?
steve004 said
I noted the Browning Brothers marking on the barrel.
I did note it as well, but the barrel is a much later production piece than the rest of the rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Cossack said
steve004 said
I noted the Browning Brothers marking on the barrel.
I did too. I didn’t think much of it because I knew the ’85 was a Browning design. Would this marking not be on an early barrel?
That marking has been found on barrels as early as serial number 20 and as late as 70000. The marking was not applied by Winchester. Instead, it was stamped on the barrels by the Browning Brothers in their shop when Winchester shipped them rifles in payment for the many patents that they owed $$$$ to John Browning.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
That marking has been found on barrels as early as serial number 20 and as late as 70000. The marking was not applied by Winchester. Instead, it was stamped on the barrels by the Browning Brothers in their shop when Winchester shipped them rifles in payment for the many patents that they owed $$$$ to John Browning.
Bert
Fascinating. That explains the different size, font, and depth of the Browning Bros. stamp.
Seems with the relined barrel, it should be a decent shooter. Knowing the bore diameter would be useful to someone wanting to buy it as a shooter. Even though it has a different barrel on it, the rifle has some character and an authentic look to it. It’s not original but also it’s not like it’s been reblued.
It would be interesting to know the original chambering.
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
Seems with the relined barrel, it should be a decent shooter. Knowing the bore diameter would be useful to someone wanting to buy it as a shooter. Even though it has a different barrel on it, the rifle has some character and an authentic look to it. It’s not original but also it’s not like it’s been reblued.It would be interesting to know the original chambering.
I’d bet 40-70 SS was the original chambering.
Mike
steve004 said
Seems with the relined barrel, it should be a decent shooter. Knowing the bore diameter would be useful to someone wanting to buy it as a shooter. Even though it has a different barrel on it, the rifle has some character and an authentic look to it. It’s not original but also it’s not like it’s been reblued.It would be interesting to know the original chambering.
It was originally a 40-70 Sharps Straight. Somebody replaced the original barrel with a later production barrel of the same caliber/cartridge.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
The pictures show me what I needed to see. The barrel has been relined. Can you measure the bore diameter? As originally manufactured by Winchester, the 40-70 Sharps Straight had a .403 diameter bore. Modern reproduction rifles made in 40-70 Sharps Straight usually have a .408 bore.Please send all of the pictures you have to my email address – [email protected]
Bert
steve004 said
Seems with the relined barrel, it should be a decent shooter. Knowing the bore diameter would be useful to someone wanting to buy it as a shooter. Even though it has a different barrel on it, the rifle has some character and an authentic look to it. It’s not original but also it’s not like it’s been reblued.It would be interesting to know the original chambering.
I slugged the bore. The slug measures .408 to the bottom of the grooves.
Is there any advantage to either bore size in terms of practical accuracy?
Cossack said
I slugged the bore. The slug measures .408 to the bottom of the grooves.
Is there any advantage to either bore size in terms of practical accuracy?
No, there is not, but you would get poor accuracy shooting if you were to shoot an original (.403) bullet in the .408 diameter bore that your rifle now has. Conversely, shooting a .408 bullet through a .403 bore is not a wise decision.
On a related note, the reloading tool and bullet mold you have with the rifle is not compatible with the barrel (bore size) now on your rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Cossack said
I slugged the bore. The slug measures .408 to the bottom of the grooves.
Is there any advantage to either bore size in terms of practical accuracy?
No, there is not, but you would get poor accuracy shooting if you were to shoot an original (.403) bullet in the .408 diameter bore that your rifle now has. Conversely, shooting a .408 bullet through a .403 bore is not a wise decision.
On a related note, the reloading tool and bullet mold you have with the rifle is not compatible with the barrel (bore size) now on your rifle.
Bert
That makes sense. I suppose a .408 in a .403 bore would have a bit of a pressure spike. I suppose the upside is that Buffalo Arms loads their .40-70 SS with .408 Bullets. Are there any other manufacturers selling .40-70 SS at this time?
What would be a reasonable price range to try to sell this rifle?
I do not know if anyone else sells 40-70 Sharps Straight ammo. I load my own.
In regard to your question about the value, as a “shooter” grade rifle, I would ask $2,500 for it and bargain a little if needed. The ammo/brass is worth at least a few hundred extra $$$ as well.
The 40-70 S.S. is an accurate cartridge when properly loaded, and relatively popular even today for those that like to shoot old BP cartridge rifles.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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