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1873 missing/incomplete serial number
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August 6, 2020 - 8:31 pm
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[email protected] said
About 60 years ago a guy tried to sell me an 1873 winchester with no serial no. He thought it was some sort of a transitional gun. I didn’t buy it as it was way up to about $50. Were there other guns known to be without serial nos. or was it messed with? Don  

Don,

All regular production Model 1873s left the factory with a serial number on them.

Bert

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August 6, 2020 - 10:42 pm
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Bert,

Appreciate the information.  The number was apparently eradicated, but there is no remaining evidence it ever had a number, someone did a superb job.  The various contours are all present.  Wood to metal is appropriate with no tell-tail metal removal.

Would the factory ever removed a serial number during some process???  The number revealed by the reagent has been carefully reapplied for obvious reasons.

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August 6, 2020 - 11:24 pm
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Tyke said
Bert,

Would the factory ever removed a serial number during some process???  The number revealed by the reagent has been carefully reapplied for obvious reasons.  

No, at least not on a Model 1894.  For the various models that had the serial number stamped on the lower tang (which was removable), the answer is Yes, but only if the gun in question was returned to the factory for a broken lower tang, or to convert it set trigger or vice versa.  It is highly likely that somebody polished or buffed the serial number off the receiver frame.  The early production Model 1894s had a much lighter stamp serial number.  The fact that you weer able to chemically raise the serial number is the proof that it was manufactured with it.

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August 7, 2020 - 12:00 am
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Tyke said

Regarding the lifting of serial numbers:

Some time back I acquired a 1894 with no sign of any serial number at the usual location (lower receiver in front of the forend).  Midas mentioned that Sears & Robuck purchased a number of 94’s and promptly removed the serial numbers for one reason or another.  If mine was one of those rifles they sure did a beautiful job because there is no indication that there had been any buffing, grinding or filing of any sort in that area.

Assuming there had been a serial number there at some point I did some research and found that from a forensic standpoint there was a process employed that could make the “lost” serial number discernable.  It required the use of a chemical called Fry’s Reagent.  After receiving a small bottle in the mail I followed the directions which involved making a clay dam around the area where the number should be.  That done, I applied about 10 drops of the reagent and waited.  About 20-30 minutes later………there it was, plain as day.    

That’s awesome stuff!!!

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August 7, 2020 - 5:34 pm
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Bert H. said

No, at least not on a Model 1894.  For the various models that had the serial number stamped on the lower tang (which was removable), the answer is Yes, but only if the gun in question was returned to the factory for a broken lower tang, or to convert it set trigger or vice versa.  It is highly likely that somebody polished or buffed the serial number off the receiver frame.  The early production Model 1894s had a much lighter stamp serial number.  The fact that you weer able to chemically raise the serial number is the proof that it was manufactured with it.

Bert  

Interesting.  Thanks for the info.  Would love to know the history.

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August 9, 2020 - 2:35 pm
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 Midas mentioned that Sears & Robuck purchased a number of 94’s and promptly removed the serial numbers for one reason or another.

Do we know if this is true?  If it is, it certainly begs the question, how did Sears remove the serial numbers?

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August 9, 2020 - 2:52 pm
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steve004 said
 Midas mentioned that Sears & Robuck purchased a number of 94’s and promptly removed the serial numbers for one reason or another.

Do we know if this is true?  If it is, it certainly begs the question, how did Sears remove the serial numbers?  

Steve,

I believe that it is true.  Harold F. Williamson discussed it in more detail in his book “Winchester: The Gun That Won The West, first published in 1952.

As I previously mentioned, Sears removed serial numbers on the Model 1892, 1893, 1894, and 1897.  I have personally seen examples of each.

Bert

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August 9, 2020 - 4:04 pm
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Bert H. said

Steve,

I believe that it is true.  Harold F. Williamson discussed it in more detail in his book “Winchester: The Gun That Won The West, first published in 1952.

As I previously mentioned, Sears removed serial numbers on the Model 1892, 1893, 1894, and 1897.  I have personally seen examples of each.

Bert  

Bert, in the examples you saw, did there appear to be a uniform way in which the serial numbers were removed?  Any sense of the method – such as they were filed off?  And then refinished?  It seems to me that the removal of serial numbers has the potential to create something that is unsightly.  Of course, examining specimens 100+ years later allows plenty of time for patina to form.

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August 9, 2020 - 4:22 pm
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steve004 said

Bert, in the examples you saw, did there appear to be a uniform way in which the serial numbers were removed?  Any sense of the method – such as they were filed off?  And then refinished?  It seems to me that the removal of serial numbers has the potential to create something that is unsightly.  Of course, examining specimens 100+ years later allows plenty of time for patina to form.  

Steve,

Go back and look at the pictures I posted earlier in this topic (response #19).  I posted three pictures, and they are exactly what is found on all four of the models I mentioned.

Bert

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August 9, 2020 - 4:35 pm
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Thanks Bert.  I had somehow missed that post.  It helps a lot.  It also triggers my memory of this is how it was done – removal and an over-stamp.  Do we know of (legitimate) examples where the serial number was removed but there was no overstamp?

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August 9, 2020 - 6:01 pm
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steve004 said
Thanks Bert.  I had somehow missed that post.  It helps a lot.  It also triggers my memory of this is how it was done – removal and an over-stamp.  Do we know of (legitimate) examples where the serial number was removed but there was no overstamp?  

None that I am aware of.

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August 9, 2020 - 6:50 pm
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What about if the gun was stolen? Don

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August 9, 2020 - 8:25 pm
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[email protected] said
What about if the gun was stolen? Don  

Don,

The question posed by Steve was “legitimate” examples (guns), and in that regard, the answer is still No.  Stolen guns are not “legitimate”.

Bert

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