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1860 Henry transitional rifle...Was it ever real?
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November 4, 2021 - 3:22 pm
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Maybe this doesn’t belong on this site but for the life of me I cannot find information on this rifle. I’ve found pictures and some have a traditional loading gate but with a flat piece of metal and some have a hinge that comes out and then closes. Was this rifle ever real and is there any information out there on it other than what I can find below?

 

https://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1860/M60-14994/60_14994.shtml

 

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November 4, 2021 - 3:35 pm
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Have you read the Madis letter?

Bob

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November 4, 2021 - 3:53 pm
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I don’t know what that is

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November 4, 2021 - 4:21 pm
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Image of George Madis’ letter is towards the bottom of the page linked above. Apparently Madis was quite impressed with this rifle. Thanks for posting the link, truly a very important part of the Winchester story. 

 

Mike

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November 4, 2021 - 5:03 pm
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Alright lets clear something up for those paying attention to what was posted.

The web link and the preceding two photos are of a very real Henry Rifle that is at the end of production when the model 1866 came into production. And there was more than one of these made. The tale end of production of the Henry and the start of the 66 has serials intermixed during the transition to the model 66.

The bottom three photos of the post are of a Uberti Reproduction that Uberti sold as a “Transition Model” rifle. It is is real, so far as in that it is a Reproduction made by Uberti, that is not an exactly faithful reproduction. For example the “hinged” loading gate is not on the original rifle(s), and was put on by Uberti as the “Hinged” loading gate is on the Patent Model of the Model 66. Which is on the original loading gate patent drawings and on the original mock-up that is now housed at Cody Firearms Museum. As far as I’m aware the “Hinged” loading gate was not a standard production component, and was merely done to prevent other manufacturers from using it. There are some other experimental Winchesters that have this “hinged” loading gate, notably some model 76s.

Does that paint a clear enough picture?

Sincerely,

Maverick

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November 4, 2021 - 5:09 pm
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Maverick said
Alright lets clear something up for those paying attention to what was posted.

The web link and the preceding two photos are of a very real Henry Rifle that is at the end of production when the model 1866 came into production. And there was more than one of these made. The tale end of production of the Henry and the start of the 66 has serials intermixed during the transition to the model 66.

The bottom three photos of the post are of a Uberti Reproduction that Uberti sold as a “Transition Model” rifle. It is is real, so far as in that it is a Reproduction made by Uberti, that is not an exactly faithful reproduction. For example the “hinged” loading gate is not on the original rifle(s), and was put on by Uberti as the “Hinged” loading gate is on the Patent Model of the Model 66. Which is on the original loading gate patent drawings and on the original mock-up that is now housed at Cody Firearms Museum. As far as I’m aware the “Hinged” loading gate was not a standard production component, and was merely done to prevent other manufacturers from using it. There are some other experimental Winchesters that have this “hinged” loading gate, notably some model 76s.

Does that paint a clear enough picture?

Sincerely,

Maverick  

 

Yes you are absolutely correct. And currently I am working with Cimarron on making a clone using the Uberti above as a base, of the original Henry that is linked above. I would just like to learn more about these models. 

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November 4, 2021 - 5:51 pm
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TXGunNut said
Image of George Madis’ letter is towards the bottom of the page linked above. Apparently Madis was quite impressed with this rifle. Thanks for posting the link, truly a very important part of the Winchester story. 

 

Mike  

A decent chunk of the letter I couldn’t make out with his handwriting. Is there a test version of it out there?

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November 5, 2021 - 3:05 am
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KCode98 said

A decent chunk of the letter I couldn’t make out with his handwriting. Is there a test version of it out there?  

His handwriting is a bit of a challenge to cipher but I’ve had a little practice with cursive handwriting, his is actually pretty good IMHO. I’ll be the last to criticize his handwriting because mine is much worse. 

 

Mike

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November 5, 2021 - 3:15 am
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Thanks for clearing up the lower photos, Maverick. I knew they were of a different rifle but wasn’t aware of Uberti’s efforts and hadn’t noticed the loading gate on specimens during my trips to Cody. I recall reading about them but apparently never connected the description to the actual guns. Maybe next year!

 

Mike

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November 5, 2021 - 3:46 am
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KCode98 said

A decent chunk of the letter I couldn’t make out with his handwriting. Is there a test version of it out there?  

Here is what it says except for one word I couldn’t make out. After reading the Winchester ledgers you get good at reading hand writing.

Bob

Henry rifle serial number 14994

I have examined this rare gun carefully, inside and out and have determined it is all correct and original.
This is a transitional piece, made between the Henry rifle and the model 1866. In numerous locations the very small assembly number 1734 is seen, this is the same in size as is found on earlier 1866 first models.
We see early first models of the 1866 and some Henry rifles in the serial series from the early 12,000 series to numbers nearing 15,000.
It is evident from the surviving guns the company did not discard any parts which could be assembled and sold or used on experimental and patent models.
A close examination of the receiver of this rifle shows it was original made as a breech loader and was not converted from a Henry frame. Some features of the barrel are distinctly original with this rifle.
Except for the assembly number, the barrel was never marked either with the standard barrel markings or the serial number.
This rifle would note as excellent condition. Well over one hundred years old, there remains a high degree of original finish on the walnut and metal parts, with a smooth aged patina ??????
In the many years I have been examining Winchesters, I have seen very few transitional Henry-1866 models.
Each of these transitional models have unique features and is a one of a kind.
Number 14994 is one of the rarest of all Winchester, and is probably a unique arm.
This is a outstanding collector arm and it will be a star in any collection or museum.

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November 5, 2021 - 4:06 am
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1873man said

KCode98 said

A decent chunk of the letter I couldn’t make out with his handwriting. Is there a test version of it out there?  

Here is what it says except for one word I couldn’t make out. After reading the Winchester ledgers you get good at reading hand writing.

Bob

Henry rifle serial number 14994

I have examined this rare gun carefully, inside and out and have determined it is all correct and original.
This is a transitional piece, made between the Henry rifle and the model 1866. In numerous locations the very small assembly number 1734 is seen, this is the same in size as is found on earlier 1866 first models.
We see early first models of the 1866 and some Henry rifles in the serial series from the early 12,000 series to numbers nearing 15,000.
It is evident from the surviving guns the company did not discard any parts which could be assembled and sold or used on experimental and patent models.
A close examination of the receiver of this rifle shows it was original made as a breech loader and was not converted from a Henry frame. Some features of the barrel are distinctly original with this rifle.
Except for the assembly number, the barrel was never marked either with the standard barrel markings or the serial number.
This rifle would note as excellent condition. Well over one hundred years old, there remains a high degree of original finish on the walnut and metal parts, with a smooth aged patina ??????
In the many years I have been examining Winchesters, I have seen very few transitional Henry-1866 models.
Each of these transitional models have unique features and is a one of a kind.
Number 14994 is one of the rarest of all Winchester, and is probably a unique arm.
This is a outstanding collector arm and it will be a star in any collection or museum.  

Bob – the word after patina is forming –“with a smooth aged patina forming”.

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November 5, 2021 - 4:14 am
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Thanks Burt, That looks right.

Bob

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November 5, 2021 - 1:34 pm
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What’s Your thoughts on lot #12 Rock Island Auction,  Henry ser#6, it’s kinda along the same ” line , experimental, Prototype” Henry. 

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November 7, 2021 - 4:45 am
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Henry Mero said
What’s Your thoughts on lot #12 Rock Island Auction,  Henry ser#6, it’s kinda along the same ” line , experimental, Prototype” Henry.   

My understanding is that the “Briggs Patent” style rifles are more a kin to the model 66 and produced early on along side with the regular early production Model 1866 Rifles. And that only a few hundred were produced on special orders and that they were serial numbered in their own sequence.

They are not Henry’s and shouldn’t be called such in my opinion. They use a the same style receiver as the Henry. But Henry serial #6 was a very special rifle presented to Abraham Lincoln, made well before the Briggs and Nelson King Patents.

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Sincerely,

Maverick

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November 8, 2021 - 1:46 am
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OK Maverick I now understand, thanks

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