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Matt74,
I "love" the rifle in the second link which you posted. There are jus Soooo many wonderful things about that rifle in the description:
WINCHESTER 1894 ANTIQUE TAKE DOWN COLLECTOR GRADE SEVERAL OPTIONS An exceptionally clean classic early 94 30 WCF TD with half mag shotgun butt and factory sling swivels. Barrel/mag blue is about 100% bright blue and the receiver is about 80% bright shiny original blue. Bore is pristine. Very nice case colors.Tight crispy action like it came out of the factory yesterday! Semi buckhorn rear and brass insert front sights. Furniture is very nicely figured with perfect fit and almost all original finish! A 29xxx S# puts it a early production range and can be shipped direct to a residence. Antique TDs of this condition are getting hard to find. The mag has an unusual flat end with a protruding knub that fits into a cutout in the barrel like all full length mags. All later models had rounded ends and NO knub on half mags. A beautuiful piece of history. Please phone with any questions – Tampa 813-886235 – as like most collectors would rather receive a personal call than an E-mail. I offer a 3 day inspection and shipping is actual cost. I do NOT believe in gouging customers with flat rate prices. All of my deluxe TDs are already sold but I have several nice 94 TDs left
I guess the owner must have just been too tired after all that glowing praise and typing to mention the non original screws in the upper right corner on the left side of the receiver. He may not like to gouge folks but he is intending on screwing somebody!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Its definitely a rebarreled gun, I can see the 2 line "Nickel Steel Barrel" stamp on the side flat.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Now you guys are catching on.
Sorry to say, I know where all these guns are from. I was being "gentle" in case the seller is watching, but since the other two, of who knows how many, showed up – Oh well.
Another guy for the list Bert (if he ever shows up).
I am not defending this rifle but just adding a comment.
The 2 line Nickel Steel Barrel marking started showing up on 30 WCF rifles about 12,000 s/n range. My s/n 137231 has this first style Nickle steel barrel marking. The earliest second style marking ( with dash before and after the top line ) that I have is s/n 323976. I do have one that does not fit into this time frame. s/n 34382 does not have the Nickle steel marking. It is a 24" rapid taper RB, 1/2 Mag, SB with a barrel Diameter at the muzzle of 0.504"
Paul
In reference to the two 1894s I posted links for above, is it just me, or does it look like photos for TWO different rifles in the first link, the rifle with the Lyman 38? Looks like two different sets of wood?
Matt
Matt
The ad says s/n 29XXX which would be an 1897 gun. He does not show the s/n. The caliber marking on this rifle is on the side of the barrel which did not happen till 1907. It also has the second style of Nickel Steel Barrel marking which would be from after 1902. ( this is another thing that I may try to narrow down ) He has no photos of the top of the barrel but it should have proof stamps with the [color=red:0d361ab5c7]caliber marking [/color:0d361ab5c7]being on the side.
Paul
94shorties
Are you saying that some Winchesters show weird stuff???
Proof markings have nothing to do with caliber.
BOBR94
What I am saying is that they moved the caliber marking to the side of the barrel at approximatly s/n 373316. Not caliber specific. And by this time, all rifles had proof marks.
Would gladly send you the data I have collected on this if you would supply an email address.
Paul
Yup, the gun in the 2nd link has extra screw holes for a receiver sight and a newer barrel, like was said, guess he just forgot to mention those things.
I was wondering if you might know him Bob – or have run into some of his guns – given you are both in Florida.
And, as I said with respect to the gun in the first link with the Lyman 38 – the one with "all the right stuff" – is it just me, or are we looking at a mix of photos from two different guns here? Buttstock wood does not look right. If I recall correctly, when I first ran into some of his guns on another antique firearms website last year – and I can’t recall the site – another one of his rifles for sale had a mix of photos from two different rifles. At first I thought maybe he just erred, but maybe it is to confuse. I sure don’t know.
Matt
Maybe he just put a TD barrel assembly from a later gun on this one. If he had done that, then the barrel assembly would have a proof mark but the receiver would not. May explain why no photos of the top of the receiver and barrel. Either way, it is not as it is made out to be. He had an ELW rifle in early summer but can’t remeber why I did not look into it any deeper.
Paul
BOBR94
Concerning the second rifle listed above how common or uncommon
is it to find an unscalloped version of the magazine tube on the shorter tubes?
you mention of this in your book on page 24. The seller also mentions this
in his description.
The “unscalloped” variant used on full length magazines will have a small lobe or cam that fits into a key way or crescent cut on the underside of the barrel. Most ½ or ¾ length levers will not have this cam or lobe as there generally is no cut on the underside of these barrels.
I say generally because I have now run into two half mag takedowns that had the relief cut on the underside of the barrel. One was a 92 and another was a 94.
They both have the scalloped variant with the cam.
Quite often you will find the scalloped (1/2 mag) version without the cam on Extra light TD 86 will full mags.
Quantrez.
Not to skirt the issue or be evasive but anything is possible as Mike has pointed out. However, it was NEVER the norm. As I stated, the scalloping was done with a shorter tube to try and prevent damage to the finish on the barrel when unwinding the tube – with care and the slight relief afforded by the scallop this was easily accomplished. It is rare, however, to see a completely unmarked barrel. There was no need for such a relief for the full-length version.
Of course replacements of the incorrect variety would likely have been made throughout the years, either through necessity or deceit.
On a VERY safe average – an un-scalloped short tube lever and a camcut in the barrel is a great source of "watch out."
In further thought on the subject, I feel that the camslot was only done at all, for the aesthetic purpose of aligning the TD lever at the muzzle of full-mag guns – it was less important or noticeable on the short-tube versions. The final tightness of the tube would still have to be quite close though.
Though actually unrelated, this entire thread is reminiscent of the round and tabbed VS the flat faced magazine tube plugs on non-TDs. I have seen a flat-faced and tabbed mag tube plug – I’m not sure if it was for a 94 or even a Winchester though – I only saw it in a picture.
Later,
B
Actually Bob, I think you are mistaken.
The scalloping on the ½ and ¾ length TD mag levers was not to “try and prevent damage to the finish on the barrel when unwinding the tube”, the reason for the scalloping as you call it was to provide clearance allowing the lever to move a complete 180 degrees, so that the lever can be used as intended…to unscrew the mag tube.
With the full length mag tube, the lever need only to move 90 degrees to clear the barrel allowing the owner to unscrew the mag tube. With shorter than full length mag tubes, the lever must rotate a complete 180 degrees to work properly. it also provides a smoother bearing surface for the plunger to ride on.
Try it sometime, take a unscalloped lever and install it on a short magazine plug, you will quickly see why Winchester “scalloped” the lever.
V/R
Mike
On his second attempt to sell this rifle, he had a bid of $8,500.00 and the reserve was not met if anyone is still curious about this rifle.
Paul
It has been relisted again. In some of the last listings, there were bids as high as $8,500.00 and did not meet his reserve. Now he has a starting bid of $5,000.00 with no reserve, if anyone is interested.
Paul
January 26, 2011
Offline
Hmmm, I wonder why all the extra photos are missing this time, including the one of the letter. It seems like he would want to show that for sure. Its still a very intriguing rifle. The price is getting better for sure.
~Gary~
January 26, 2011
Offline
The "F" checkered (carved) rifle finally sold for $7235. I bet he’s wishing he would not have put a reserve on it when it went up to $8500 in a previous auction.
For anyone interested, I gathered a little more info and pics on this rifle and it did have a prooofmark on the receiver as well. Also, all the barrel markings corresponded to the 1900-1901 warehouse dates. This would lead one to believe that it was not re-barreled, but was proofed after the repair work in 1915. Like Bob R said earlier, it is a Handsome rifle, but its always going to be a "story gun" that you’ll have to explain.
I got a scan of the ledger entry too, but not sure how to post a pdf on here. The only thing that looked funny to me was the notation interpreted by the CFM as checkered stocks looked more like a "DS" rather than a "CS". Does anyone know what a carved stock notation looks like in the ledgers? Is it a CVS or something like that? Could the DS have been decorated stock?
Although I didn’t really get the definitive answers I was looking for, it was fun trying to figure it out.
~Gary~
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