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Anybody researching the Model 1910 self loader?
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March 8, 2019 - 4:01 pm
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I am wondering if anyone has a feel for or a WAG about how many deluxe models were produced of the 1910?  I have seen two in 20 years of collecting.  Admittedly with only 21,700 produced and the rifle already one of the most expensive in the winchester line, you wouldn’t expect that many.  Unfortunately, I thought this question could be answered by the records at Cody but I guess here aren’t any records for this model?   Any insights or help will be greatly appreciated.  Thank you for your time.

john

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March 8, 2019 - 4:27 pm
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John,

I am unaware of anyone who is actively researching the Model 1910, and unfortunately (as you discovered), there is very little in the way of surviving records/information available for them. The only suggestion I have for you, is to locate a copy of “THE FORGOTTEN WINCHESTERS A History of the Model 1905, 1907 and 1910 Self-Loading Rifles” by John Henwood and see if he discussed it.

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March 8, 2019 - 6:54 pm
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Thanks Bert.  Luckily, I am the proud owner of the Henwood book.  All he writes is “not many” were deluxe versions.  I don’t know if this means less than 100 or less than 500 or ?

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March 8, 2019 - 8:30 pm
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While the 8 month old takes a nap – on kid duty today – i was playing with numbers.  Looking at Madis I calculated percentages of those with checkering, or fancy wood or engraving/inscribing to numbers of standard rifles and applied these percentages to the 20787 Model 10s that were made.   If the percentages are similar, and there is no reason to think that they are, it comes out to between 16 and 207 Model 10s were deluxe.   I know this is faulty on so many levels but what is interesting with the lever action numbers is that the numbers of checkered or special wood or inscribed rifles are pretty similar.  All but the checkered 1876s are alot less than one percent of the rifles produced having these special features.  I have no reason to think the Model 10 was any different.  In fact, given the cost difference between a standard 1910 at $30 and a deluxe at $48 I imagine that its even lower percentage than the lever actions.

I got most of this from Madis 1985 and some of the totals made from Wikipedia.

1873 – 600 special wood, 700 checkered, 700 engraved/inscribed – 720,000 made

1876 – 400 special wood, 630 checkered, 500 engraved/inscribed – 63,871 made

1886 – no data

1892 – 600 special wood, 800 checkered, 900 engraved/inscribed – 1,004,675 made

1894 – 800 special wood, 780 checkered, no data for engraved/inscribed – 7,000,000

1895 – 900 special wood, 1100 checked, no data for engraved/inscribed – 425,132 made

Yeah, i know i need to get out of the house.  Thanks.

John

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March 8, 2019 - 9:31 pm
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John,

The so called “rarity” numbers published by Madis are highly inaccurate, and in most cases, the numbers on Wikipedia were copied from his books.  Based on surveys conducted by the Cody Firearms Museum and by various other people (yours truly included), Madis was way short on his estimates of what was actually manufactured.  To give you an example, I have currently surveyed just shy of 21,000 of the Model 1894/94s manufactured in the 354,000 – 2,600,011 serial number range, and the number of specimens with factory checkered stocks is already well past the “780” number.

It has been my experience that the number of Fancy “deluxe” rifles manufactured by Winchester averaged approximately 3% of the total production (per model), with a few of the models having a much higher production percentage.

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March 8, 2019 - 11:06 pm
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Thanks Bert.  Good to know about Madis.  Three percent would be about 623.  Given how infrequently I see the deluxe, I would be surprised if it was that high a number but unfortunately it’s all speculation.  Too bad about the 1910 records.  Has anybody ever gotten an explanation about why they are missing?

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March 9, 2019 - 7:35 pm
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John,

Winchester intentionally burned millions of the older records in their factory furnaces during and shortly after WW II… They were simply clearing space. Federal law & the BATF did not require retention of any manufacturer records until the GCA of 1968 was enacted.

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March 10, 2019 - 2:44 am
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Bert,

That makes me sick!!

John

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March 10, 2019 - 4:01 am
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John Lindly said
Bert,

That makes me sick!!

John  

Me too, but it does make the surviving records all the more special.  Fortunately Winchester executive Edwin Pugsley was wise enough to have all of the early Winchester ledger records saved, otherwise we would not have anything.

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March 10, 2019 - 1:37 pm
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Good morning John,

Might I suggest that you take up the challenge and begin a research survey of the Model 1910 rifles.  It will give you something to do while that 8 month old is napping.  There are many past suction catalogs from the larger auction houses available on line as a jump start to the effort.  

RIA Feb 2019 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1032/764/winchester-model-1910-semiautomatic-rifle

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1032/2860/winchester-deluxe-model-1910-semiautomatic-rifle

RIA Dec 2018

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/75/3076/winchester-model-1910-401-caliber-semiautomatic-rifle

And a couple from Collector Firearms Archives here in Houston:

http://archives.collectorsfirearms.com/?category=943&subcategory=1164&category=&product=W7669

http://archives.collectorsfirearms.com/?category=943&subcategory=1164&category=&product=W6441

Ready. Set. Go.  I would be glad to advise how to do this and help if you want.

Michael

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March 10, 2019 - 2:08 pm
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Thanks Michael!  I assume that i would just accumulate information on every 1910 that i can find to create a data base?  I can do that – will keep my brain from turning into mush.   If there’s more then please PM me.

John

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March 10, 2019 - 4:02 pm
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I can give you one………

Serial # 208

Standard sporting rifle

If you need any other details, let me know.

 

Erin

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March 10, 2019 - 5:08 pm
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John Lindly said
Thanks Michael!  I assume that i would just accumulate information on every 1910 that i can find to create a data base?  I can do that – will keep my brain from turning into mush.   If there’s more then please PM me.

John  

Sounds like we got the hook set!!  Congratulations and welcome to the small crowd of researchers.  You will find it very rewarding…. and time consuming.  You will want to set up an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of the rifles.  Each column will have a different feature to keep track of.  I am totally unfamiliar with the rifle so I do not know what may have changed over the production life.  Column one is the serial number.  Sometimes the wording or location of barrel stamps changed so you might want to keep track of that.  Possibly sight styles, of course wether or not they are deluxe.  I also keep track of where I see each rifle I come across.  This has been interesting to watch some guns get resold across the country and also to track fakes.  And a column for “Other Information” to put anything of interest about the gun.

You may want to make up a simple introductory sentence or two which explains that you are doing research on the Model 1910 and can you please get the full serial number of the rifle listed for sale.  You can send this to listing on GB or GI where the SN is not shown or listed.  Start a survey link in the 
“Winchester Research Surveys” in the WACA forum which outlines just what you are doing and the information you are looking for for each rifle.  Include this link in your request for SN’s.  It adds credibility to your effort.

There are five currently on listed on GunsInternational.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-semi-auto-post-war/win-model-1910-deluxe-rifle.cfm?gun_id=101183915

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-semi-auto-post-war/win-model-1910.cfm?gun_id=101173948

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-semi-auto-pre-war/winchester-model-1910-sl-40-self-loading-41-caliber-401-first-year-production-1910-.cfm?gun_id=101172940

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-semi-auto-pre-war/winchester-model-1910-s-l-401-wsl.cfm?gun_id=101172279

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-semi-auto-pre-war/winchester-model-1910-401.cfm?gun_id=100869622

By my count you should easily have 12 so far and by the time you get done going into the RIA, Morphy, Julia, Poulin, and Amoskeag old auctions probably hit 100 rifles without too much problem!!!

Michael

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March 10, 2019 - 5:25 pm
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John,

There are two on GunBroker.com right now.  I would definitely track the barrel markings and the upper tang stamps to see if they changed during production.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/803330654

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/800993971

Michael

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March 10, 2019 - 8:29 pm
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Thank you to all!  I am on it.

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March 10, 2019 - 8:37 pm
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John

Since the Model was manufactured from 1910 to 1936 I expect that the tang and barrel markings will change since Winchester began placing the Model designation on the barrel instead of the tang.  One other thing I do is keep a photo file of each rifle I have found for my surveys.  It is pretty easy to save them in SN specific folders.  You never know when you might want to go back and clarify something and the photos are the only source.

Michael

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March 11, 2019 - 1:26 am
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Will this survey be just for the 1910 or will it include the 1907? I have a beautiful 1907 Deluxe that I would be happy to share info on.

Steve

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March 11, 2019 - 3:01 am
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Steve,

just the 1910 at this time.  But would love to see your deluxe 1907.  I’ve got one too.

Best,

john

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November 15, 2019 - 10:01 pm
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Thanks Bill.  I don’t know how I missed that one.

John

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