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Early WWII Heatshields
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June 3, 2023 - 5:20 pm
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Hello, I was curious if anyone knows whether the early 6 row heatshields ever didn’t have any markings (I.e. no pat applied or W stamp) on them. I’ve come across one that is of the early style (6 rows of holes, brass bead for the sight, and 3 sets of 2 rivets securing the shield to the mount) and just trying to determine if it’s a repro or original. Additionally it’s screws are all flathead slot screws, as opposed to the slightly domed slot screws I’m use to seeing. It doesn’t have any bluing on it, it’s mostly bare metal and patina. Thank you!

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June 3, 2023 - 6:37 pm
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FN! said
Hello, I was curious if anyone knows whether the early 6 row heatshields ever didn’t have any markings (I.e. no pat applied or W stamp) on them. I’ve come across one that is of the early style (6 rows of holes, brass bead for the sight, and 3 sets of 2 rivets securing the shield to the mount) and just trying to determine if it’s a repro or original. Additionally it’s screws are all flathead slot screws, as opposed to the slightly domed slot screws I’m use to seeing. It doesn’t have any bluing on it, it’s mostly bare metal and patina. Thank you!

I suspect you have a reproduction heat shield.

The WW I Model 1897 heat shields should be marked as shown (no “W”).

Heat-Shield-PAT.APPL_.FOR-675157.jpgImage Enlarger Heat-Shield-Patent-marking-681936.jpgImage Enlarger

 

 

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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June 3, 2023 - 6:39 pm
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The six row cooling hole adaptors used on the early WWII Model 97 trench guns did not have markings on them like the WWI adaptors did.  The screws should be slightly domed.  

Can you post photos of the one you found? 

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June 3, 2023 - 9:29 pm
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Looks like it is a reproduction.  The cut for the ears at the rear of the heat shield is not correct, and the nubs on the heat shield that prevent it from laying against the barrel are in the wrong position.

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June 3, 2023 - 10:38 pm
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Good to know! I was fairly certain going off a couple points, buts it’s nice to have it confirmed, I appreciate the help!

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June 4, 2023 - 4:54 pm
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Tom D said
Looks like it is a reproduction.  The cut for the ears at the rear of the heat shield is not correct, and the nubs on the heat shield that prevent it from laying against the barrel are in the wrong position.

  

Out of curiosity, do you happen to have an idea what the shotgun might be worth?

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June 4, 2023 - 10:24 pm
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From the poor quality of the pics it is hard to tell. The handguard is the piece most often missing on a lot of these old Trenchguns and finding one loose is like a needle in a haystack. I have seen them go for well over $1,000 and even some of those are put togethers.

A real nice, complete M97 Trenchgun will bring upwards of $10,000. Parts guns, not so much.  Big Larry

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June 4, 2023 - 10:44 pm
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Yes, nice original ones are selling for well over $10K.  One of the Ivanhoe 1897 trench guns was just sold by Rock Island Auction for over $38,000.  It was a nice one, and I guess the provenance drove the price that high.

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June 4, 2023 - 11:51 pm
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Big Larry said
From the poor quality of the pics it is hard to tell. The handguard is the piece most often missing on a lot of these old Trenchguns and finding one loose is like a needle in a haystack. I have seen them go for well over $1,000 and even some of those are put togethers.

A real nice, complete M97 Trenchgun will bring upwards of $10,000. Parts guns, not so much.  Big Larry

  

Sorry about that, I guess Dropbox didn’t handle the resolution well, I can try it again to see if it posts them better. There’s no cracks or anything as far as I’ve found and it functions very well, locks up well and cycles. At this point the only that I can tell is amiss is the heat shield being a repro, so I’d have to look for another one. Not gonna lie, I have an original early Stevens one I might put on for the time being. I just think the plum looks nice haha

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June 4, 2023 - 11:58 pm
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Tom D said
Yes, nice original ones are selling for well over $10K.  One of the Ivanhoe 1897 trench guns was just sold by Rock Island Auction for over $38,000.  It was a nice one, and I guess the provenance drove the price that high.

  

I see, so I guess I didn’t do too bad then haha I don’t think I’d ever sell it; I’ve grown very fond of this shotgun and honestly if anything would like to see if I can find a solid original WWI era M1897. I appreciate the help!

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June 5, 2023 - 2:00 am
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Tom D said
Yes, nice original ones are selling for well over $10K.  One of the Ivanhoe 1897 trench guns was just sold by Rock Island Auction for over $38,000.  It was a nice one, and I guess the provenance drove the price that high.

  

None of the Ivanhoe guns were US marked. At one time, I had a rather minty WW1 US marked Trenchgun I bought from a high end dealer for $4,000. Nicest one Eric Archer ever seen. I sold that shotgun several years ago for $13,500. If the Ivanhoe’s can bring that, imagine if they were US marked. I wonder what my Ithaca M37 Trenchgun would be worth today. I sold it for $17,500 a few years ago when I broke up my US militaria collection. Tom, you and I are on the same page.   Big LarrySmile

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June 5, 2023 - 3:47 pm
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Tom D said
Yes, nice original ones are selling for well over $10K.  One of the Ivanhoe 1897 trench guns was just sold by Rock Island Auction for over $38,000.  It was a nice one, and I guess the provenance drove the price that high.

  

What is an Ivanhoe trench gun?

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June 5, 2023 - 5:05 pm
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Hi Chuck.  The “Ivanhoe” Model 1897 trench guns are WWI military contract trench guns that were transferred to the Virginia National Guard shortly after WWI and then were acquired by the Richmond, VA police department.  About 20 years ago the Richmond PD sold them to Interstate Arms who sold them under their Ivanhoe’s Warehouse Outlet name.  There were 74 of them,, and none of them had any hand stamped martial markings.

 

Here’s the link to the one that was just sold by RIA:  WWI Era Winchester 1897 Trench Shotgun with Bayonet | Rock Island Auction

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June 5, 2023 - 5:40 pm
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Thanks Tom.  Are these identified by the serial number?  I only saw a 2 on the stock.

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June 5, 2023 - 6:44 pm
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Oh actually one more question, if you don’t mind, for M97s is there any difference in value between the early just US stamp ones like mine vs the later US and ordnance stamp receivers?

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June 6, 2023 - 1:13 am
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Chuck, yes, the Ivanhoe shotguns can be identified by serial number.   I have a list, and Bruce Canfield listed them in his military shotgun book.   The numbers found on the stocks of some of them are rack or inventory numbers.  Some are stamped with various numbers and “RPD” for the Richmond Police Dept.

 

FN!, the US only marked 97 trench guns used to bring a bit more money than the US and flaming bomb marked ones due to their being fewer of them.  But it seems lately they both can sell for about the same money, and it is primarily based on condition.

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June 6, 2023 - 2:44 am
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Tom D said
Chuck, yes, the Ivanhoe shotguns can be identified by serial number.   I have a list, and Bruce Canfield listed them in his military shotgun book.   The numbers found on the stocks of some of them are rack or inventory numbers.  Some are stamped with various numbers and “RPD” for the Richmond Police Dept.

 

FN!, the US only marked 97 trench guns used to bring a bit more money than the US and flaming bomb marked ones due to their being fewer of them.  But it seems lately they both can sell for about the same money, and it is primarily based on condition.

  

I see I see. So really if the intent ever possessed me, I should look for a correct original heat shield assembly if I wanted to make the most of its value, which if I understand correctly, should be the 6 row design. Otherwise she’s good as she is.

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