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clarence said
oldcrankyyankee said
WOW, excellent pic and info! just found out that my Winchester Garand maybe an arsenal rebuild because of that pic.
Wouldn’t be surprising, most were, but I’ll bet you didn’t pay 4 Gs for it! Should be an inspection mark indicating where it was rebuilt.
As Clarence said, if it was an arsenal rebuild it would be stamped in the stock which arsenal did it. If there is no arsenal stamp then it probably is a Springfield band. The Winchester band is one of the harder parts to find when putting one of these back to all Winchester parts. Sometimes the barrel and the stock are easier.
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Chuck said
As Clarence said, if it was an arsenal rebuild it would be stamped in the stock which arsenal did it.
If Cranky tells me how it’s marked, I’ll try looking it up in the chart I have.
This has been amazing feedback, thanks everyone! Going to keep hunting…
Peter the first thing you need to do is buy at least 3 books on the Garand. Joe Poyer and Craig Riesch wrote The M1 Garand 1936 to 1957 but make sure you get the latest edition. I think Scott Duff and others wrote books too. Bruce Canfield did several. In Canfield’s book, Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine, on page 27 he mentions the machine marks on the Winchester band. I’m not sure if any book shows these marks? I learned this from a long time Military collector. Most of these books have pictures of the parts and the serial number range for each change. You will see pictures of the Cartouches and the Arsenal rebuild stamps. Winchester had 4 different cartouches during WW II production. There are over 20 different Arsenal markings.
Chuck said
Peter the first thing you need to do is buy at least 3 books on the Garand. Joe Poyer and Craig Riesch wrote The M1 Garand 1936 to 1957 but make sure you get the latest edition. I think Scott Duff and others wrote books too. Bruce Canfield did several. In Canfield’s book, Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine, on page 27 he mentions the machine marks on the Winchester band. I’m not sure if any book shows these marks? I learned this from a long time Military collector. Most of these books have pictures of the parts and the serial number range for each change. You will see pictures of the Cartouches and the Arsenal rebuild stamps. Winchester had 4 different cartouches during WW II production. There are over 20 different Arsenal markings.
I have the Poyer book which helped convince me that the degree of study I’d have to put in to avoid buying a messed up gun like the one Collector’s is flogging exceeded my desire to own one; & in addition it also became clear that any M1 that met my standards was going to cost way more than I was willing to pay. On top of that, the cheap surplus ammo that was once available is LONG gone.
Some fat-cat who’s been watching WWII films on Netflix is going to buy that Collector’s gun no questions asked. But what question would he ask after being assured by the salesclerk that the gun is 100% legit?
Clarence, I agree about the amount of study that is required. Before I bought my Garands and a Carbine I had Craig Riesch take them apart. From a quick glance at a Garand you need to know, in addition to the band, what the stock, front sight, rear sight, barrel and the butt plate should look like for the time period of the manufacture date. One of my Garands is all original but has the modified operating rod. The other gun has had a very small amount of help. The serial numbers are 2502524 and 2502525.
$4,000 for an honest, all original Win13 Garand is not too much in my opinion. You can spend that much on really a nice Springfield!
Here are a couple of pictures of my Win13:
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clarence said
oldcrankyyankee said
WOW, excellent pic and info! just found out that my Winchester Garand maybe an arsenal rebuild because of that pic.
Wouldn’t be surprising, most were, but I’ll bet you didn’t pay 4 Gs for it! Should be an inspection mark indicating where it was rebuilt.
Clarance, thanks for the offer but I believe I have figured it out. In fact it is a CMP rework, just happens to have a lot of Winchester parts. And no I didnt pay any where near 4k. Bought it as as shooter like the other Garands I have.
They call them a “Win-13” because the drawing revision number on the receiver is D28291WIN-13 (see photo). The drawing number on the earlier produced Winchester M1 Garands is D28291-2 (it does not have “WIN” in the drawing number). The Win-13s were the last batch of M1 Garands produced by Winchester during WWII and are in the 1.6 million serial number range.
Hello, new to the forum. If I may interject.
The problem with Winchester M1 Garands is they had a lot of manufacturing problems and produced very few that were all WRA. Many left Winchesters factory with other manufacturers parts do to slow production rates and issues with quality.
Add to this that any rifle that ended up in service during WWII, most likely, went back to the armory for inspection and/or work and they just grabbed any part that was in the bin to make the rifle battle ready.
I know there are a lot of people on Civilian Marksmanship Program forum that are constantly looking for WRA parts to exchange and make complete Winchester rifles. This is very difficult to do given the production issues and lack of part volume.
I was lucky enough to get a July 1943 Winchester from CMP but of course, other than the action, most of the parts are Springfield. Some of these parts could have been from the Armory, at least once or installed by CMP during their inspection.
She is one of the 30K duplicate serial numbers with Springfield. I would love to find its Springfield twin, but the chances of that happening are about as good as me getting younger.
Rick Hill said
$4,000 for an honest, all original Win13 Garand is not too much in my opinion. You can spend that much on really a nice Springfield!Here are a couple of pictures of my Win13:
Very nice. Would be something to have one of the Win13’s, I love the weapons of WWII and don’t think any of the Win13 from the 1945 contract (serial number range of 1,600,000-1,640,000) actually saw service. I could be wrong, I am no expert by any means.
I love the weapons of WWII and don’t think any of the Win13 from the serial number range of 1,600,000-1,640,000) actually saw service.Patrick Colahan said
Korea?
Patrick Colahan said
Hello, new to the forum. If I may interject.The problem with Winchester M1 Garands is they had a lot of manufacturing problems and produced very few that were all WRA. Many left Winchesters factory with other manufacturers parts do to slow production rates and issues with quality.
I like to know where this information is documented? There is documentation about Winchester completing early rifles before the final design/contract was issued.
Chuck said
Patrick Colahan said
Hello, new to the forum. If I may interject.
The problem with Winchester M1 Garands is they had a lot of manufacturing problems and produced very few that were all WRA. Many left Winchesters factory with other manufacturers parts do to slow production rates and issues with quality.
I like to know where this information is documented? There is documentation about Winchester completing early rifles before the final design/contract was issued.
NRA posted a story about the Winchester M1 Garand, written by Bruce Canfield. If you do a search for “The Winchester Garand An Official Journal of the NRA” you can read the article. Bruce has a detailed book on the M1 also that will provide some additional information.
I will have to look for some of the more detailed information as it has been a while since I read it and can’t remember if it was in the Canfield book or another.
Also, reading back to what I said earlier and you quoted above, my statement regarding they produced very few all Winchester was incorrect. They only produced I think a total of a little over half a million M1’s over the multiple contracts they had. The problems were unrelated, but still some of those rifles were not all WRA. Sorry, getting old and misremembering.
Also, I don’t mean to sound like I am bashing Winchester either. During the war period there were huge shortages of trained machinists and Winchester only was able to staff for one shift. This made production slow and required some components from Springfield to be required to make deliveries.
I’ll check out the Canfield books that I have. I know Winchester never took any extra time to finish their Garand parts. They were built to comply with the contact and no more.
Amoskeag WIN13 at auction today, Lot #298: realized $7,055 with the juice!
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Chuck said
I’ll check out the Canfield books that I have. I know Winchester never took any extra time to finish their Garand parts. They were built to comply with the contact and no more.
Check out Winchesters M12 Trench gun from last of production. They are parkerized, unfinished, and ugly compared to the earlier guns. One has to ask himself why they never did any M97’s like that? I would imagine that the last of the M97’s was shipped out late 1943, and a time later for the M12.
Yes, the WIN-13’s had various lathe and grinding marks, but 100% unaltered rifles are very scarce. This holds true with late M12 Trenchguns as well. Ugly, yes, but they too bring more $$$ than a shiny blued one. Possibly more than a M97 Trenchgun. They cut no corners on those. I have a minty M97 that I would take no less than $10,000 for. A 1943 gun.
Mr. Hill did well on his purchase. The only reason I got mine, was the rifle was a gift from a friend. It also came with a minty M1907 1944 dated sling. Big Larry
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