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1943 Winchester Trench Gun?
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Posts: 18
October 11, 2022 - 3:55 pm

1sp_QuotePost

I have a 1943 model 12 which I believe is a trench gun that had the neat shield and bayonet removed. The barrel has the 3 cuts on the barrel, rear sling swivel serial # 1033372.

Pictures to follow when I get it.

Which heat shield and bayonet lug would be correct the 4 row 19 hole or the 6 row 29 hole?

Any info greatly appreciated.

Thanks Kevin

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10630
October 11, 2022 - 4:45 pm

2sp_QuotePost

Kevin Kelley said
I have a 1943 model 12 which I believe is a trench gun that had the neat shield and bayonet removed. The barrel has the 3 cuts on the barrel, rear sling swivel serial # 1033372.

Pictures to follow when I get it.

Which heat shield and bayonet lug would be correct the 4 row 19 hole or the 6 row 29 hole?

Any info greatly appreciated.

Thanks Kevin  

To the best of my knowledge, only the 4-row 19-hole heat shields were used on the Model 12 Trench Guns.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 104
October 11, 2022 - 4:47 pm

3sp_QuotePost

You didn’t say whether the shotgun has a blue finish or is parkerized.  In that serial number range, it should have a factory parkerized finish.  The parkerized Model 12 trench guns all had parkerized bayonet adaptors/heat shields that had a “W” mark on the left side of the bayonet adaptor.  And as Bert mentioned, the heat shield should have 4 rows of cooling holes.

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Posts: 2297
October 13, 2022 - 3:52 pm

4sp_QuotePost

If, and that is a big IF, you could find a correct handguard for that shotgun, it probably would cost as much as the shotgun. The factory parked M12’s are much scarcer than the blued ones. They also look like they were run through a milling machine sideways. No care was taken to polish the last of the M12 Trenchguns. A complete gun will be more valuable than a blued gun. M12 Trenchguns are a welcome addition to a military gun collection. Big Larry

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Posts: 4105
October 13, 2022 - 9:29 pm

5sp_QuotePost

I know little about Model 12 gauge Trench Guns – but it is fun to learn.  Does this one look right?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/949545160

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10630
October 13, 2022 - 10:05 pm

6sp_QuotePost

steve004 said
I know little about Model 12 gauge Trench Guns – but it is fun to learn.  Does this one look right?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/949545160

  

It does with the exception of the “WB” cartouche on the butt stock. Specifically, it appears that the butt stock has been lightly sanded and refinished at some time in the past, as the cartouche stamp is much shallower than it should be.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 2297
October 13, 2022 - 11:52 pm

7sp_QuotePost

The only military M12 shotgun I can recalled seeing with the WB cartouche was an early Riot Gun. Also, this one has no ord. wheel. The picture may not have been taken in proper light, but the cooling sleeve does not appear to be shiny blue. I would not pay $4,000 for it.   Big Larry

This is a no excuse M97 Trenchgun. The last one of my former collection. Big Larry

 

 

M1897-Trenchgun.JPGImage Enlarger

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Posts: 104
October 14, 2022 - 1:28 am

8sp_QuotePost

Besides it being in the serial number range of Model 12 riot guns and not Model 12 trench guns, and that it has a WB marked stock, there are some other issues with that gun.  The rear sling swivel is wrong.  It’s not the kind Winchester used on its trench guns.  Also, did anyone else notice that there are holes in the magazine tube for a takedown lever?  Model 12 trench guns do not have the takedown lever holes in the mag tube. 

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Posts: 2297
October 14, 2022 - 2:13 am

9sp_QuotePost

Been a while since my US Shotgun days, and you are quite right. It’s probably a riot stock with the wrong swivel and maybe the WB is fake like many were.

Like I stated, it is not worth $4,000. The M97 Trenchgun I have pictured is worth more than double that figure. With a few 80 year old handling marks, it is truly “drippy mint”.   Big Larry

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Posts: 2297
October 14, 2022 - 2:21 am

10sp_QuotePost

Add to all this, did anyone notice the Brinnell hardness punch on the receiver? That is a Winchester rework mark. I think the swivel is from a M1917 Enfield. Big Larry

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Posts: 104
October 14, 2022 - 2:40 am

11sp_QuotePost

I did notice the punch mark on the receiver.  Usually, there’s also one on the barrel.

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Posts: 4105
October 14, 2022 - 1:46 pm

12sp_QuotePost

Big Larry said
Been a while since my US Shotgun days, and you are quite right. It’s probably a riot stock with the wrong swivel and maybe the WB is fake like many were.

Like I stated, it is not worth $4,000. The M97 Trenchgun I have pictured is worth more than double that figure. With a few 80 year old handling marks, it is truly “drippy mint”.   Big Larry

  

Larry – I’m sure what you are saying is true… for the 1% of the buyers out there who are educated and have done their homework.  But for the 99% of gun buyers out there (e.g. people who buy guns off gunbroker), it is probably worth more than $4,000.  I don’t think the bidding is over yet.

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Posts: 2297
October 14, 2022 - 3:10 pm

13sp_QuotePost

Over the years of collecting US Martial Arms, I found a high probability of them to be fakes. Especially when it came to stamping new cartouches. US markings on the early M1897 Trenchguns was a big problem. I had to laugh at a few of them. Garands, M1903’s, were especially targets of the fakers. These fakes are done intentionally to drive the prices of junk guns up. If you are going to pay $4,000+ for a redone gun, you had better learn about what you collect. Read Mr. Canfields books and you cannot go wrong. I learned early about US Shotguns and had some of the finest guns available. Got big bucks when I sold them. Big Larry

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