Chuck said
 I’m assuming your box says 405 grain?  Only Military had the string.

Service cartridges were loaded with two bullet wts, 500g for rifles, 405g for carbines.  Therfor “Gov’t Standard” is ambiguous. Carbine also had a reduced powder charge, 50 g. I think.  Looks like bullet wt is marked on box, but I can’t read it.  I’ve seen other commercial boxes with the string opening.

Other experts will know more, but a couple of details I see. The image of the cartridge used on the box has a head stamp shown. So that make it post-1885. The text/terms used has the callout “Central” instead of “Center”, so its pre-1898.

I don’t recall when they started making the “Solid-Head” cartridges, but that may help narrow it down further.

The label design and the use of the strings is unusual and suggests for military use. But I don’t know that for a fact and I’m not sure on dates.

That’s my best guess so far. As mentioned I’d get a hold of those mentioned previously.

Sincerely,

Maverick

clarence said
Winchester used “center-fire” in the 1874 catalog.  Doesn’t necessarily mean boxes were marked the same.  

It may not “necessarily” mean that but it has been found to be the case. At least that is what is shown and discussed in Giles & Shuey’s cartridge box book and noted by others.

In my research into Reloading Tools (also noted in Lewis Yearout’s Monogram), the 1874 Tool Box Label uses the term “Center Fire”. But the next 1875 Tool label uses “Central Fire” all the way through to the Model 1894 Tool. Where then both the Model 1894 & 1882 Tool Box labels switch to using the term “Center Fire” in 1898, just like the cartridge box labels. 

You can actually find the terms Central and Center used interchangeably throughout the written text descriptions in the catalogs through various years. But the box labels, in my experience don’t reflect this and do align with what is stated in Giles & Shuey’s book. And it seems to hold true for the reloading tool boxes, instruction sheets, primer tin/box labels, etc. across the board.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Chuck said

Good catch.  So it is post 1885 and pre 1894.  

Where do you get the pre-1894 date from?

I thought the solid head case being mentioned might lead somewhere, but read that they started making the solid head cartridges in 1880.

Sincerely,

Maverick

P.S. If I get a minute this evening I may see what a friend has to say about the box.

That “exact” box is not to be found in the Giles & Shuey box so it must be a really rare one. A box with a “almost” identical box top can be found 0n the bottom of page 140 with the difference being the box in the Giles book does not have the period before the 45 as does Steff’s. Otherwise there is nothing like it in the book. Even though Ray has sold most of his ammo and is in retirement he still has a keen interest in old ammo and probably knows more about it than anyone on the planet. I suggest sending him the photos and see what information he can provide.

Maverick said

Where do you get the pre-1894 date from?

 

I thought the solid head case being mentioned might lead somewhere, but read that they started making the solid head cartridges in 1880.

Sincerely,

Maverick

P.S. If I get a minute this evening I may see what a friend has to say about the box.  

Page 140 of the Giles and Shuey book.  I re read the paragraph and it says pre 1893.  So the correct date when they started calling out the 1886 on the box was 1893?  You will notice that the 1894 box is the earliest box shown that calls out the 1886.

Burt Humphrey said
That “exact” box is not to be found in the Giles & Shuey box so it must be a really rare one. A box with a “almost” identical box top can be found 0n the bottom of page 140 with the difference being the box in the Giles book does not have the period before the 45 as does Steff’s. Otherwise there is nothing like it in the book. Even though Ray has sold most of his ammo and is in retirement he still has a keen interest in old ammo and probably knows more about it than anyone on the planet. I suggest sending him the photos and see what information he can provide.  

The Cartridge book does not show all of the variations.  I have several boxes that are not shown in the book.  It could be rare or not.
Ray was at the Colorado Springs show.  This is the only show he is still attending.

Maverick said

I hadn’t emailed him about the Frankford Arsenal box. But would imagine the simplest way to determine what caliber they’re for, without opening the box and ruining the collector value, is to have the box X-Rayed.

Sincerely,

Maverick  

I don’t think Ray studied non Winchester ammo but who knows.  I called my military collector friend.  He said it is very unusual for a Frankford Arsenal box not to state the model of the gun or the caliber.  He says it is most likely 45-70.  He has similar boxes in his collection but they are much earlier dated.  The trapdoor Springfield would be the most logical rifle for that ammo in this time frame.