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Winchester belt buckle info
January 3, 2014
8:15 am
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hello im new to the board and would like some info on this buckle,as far as i know its silver,but im not familiar with the markings.
thanks
spiro

http://s616.photobucket.com/user/segunas/media/winchester/3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s616.photobucket.com/user/segunas/media/winchester/_57JPG1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0%5B/img%5D

January 3, 2014
9:58 am
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"road king"
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You might want to check out this site. Most of these Winchester Buckles are Fantasy items.

http://www.bogusbuckles.com/photos/index.php

January 6, 2014
8:32 am
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i got this buckle from the patent lawyer that worked for winchester from 1968 to 1982 it was given to him.

January 6, 2014
11:27 am
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They are FAKE!

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January 6, 2014
12:30 pm
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so which ones are the real ones?

January 6, 2014
2:17 pm
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I don't think there were any real ones. I think they're all fantasy items.

January 6, 2014
2:23 pm
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By that, I mean they weren't made or commissioned by Winchester. So they're not really fakes, because there weren't any to fake. I guess somebody will prove me wrong. 🙂

January 6, 2014
6:40 pm
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January 6, 2014
7:01 pm
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I've got lots of those pins on the cards and some without cards.I knew enough people at the Winchester Canada plant that got them and then bought from them.Lots of other stuff I picked up as well that were dealer item only.One of these days I'll have my winchester room finished and everything on display !

January 7, 2014
6:13 am
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oakridge said
By that, I mean they weren't made or commissioned by Winchester. So they're not really fakes, because there weren't any to fake. I guess somebody will prove me wrong. 🙂

By Definition

fake

noun
1. a thing that is not genuine; a forgery or sham.
"the painting was a fake"
synonyms: forgery, counterfeit, copy, pirate(d) copy, sham, fraud, hoax, imitation, mock-up, dummy, reproduction; etc.

Just because something was never made by Winchester, doesn't mean its not a sham, fraud, hoax, or imitation and so forth.

CALL IT WHAT IT IS. A FAKE!!!!!

As far as the "service pin" goes I have no Idea. Why would a legit Winchester Belt Buckle say "Winchester & Colt Ammo" and "A gift from Colt"?

I believe a few years back there was an article in the Collector as to why these Buckles are fake. Its no different than all of those fake Confederate & Union Belt buckles floating around.

Sincerely,
Maverick

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January 7, 2014
6:53 pm
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SPIROS,
I was referring only to the belt buckles. The pins are obviously Winchester items.

Maverick,
I won't argue with the definition of fake, but there would have to be an earlier original for one to be a forgery, counterfeit, copy, imitation, mock-up, dummy or reproduction. As to sham, fraud, or hoax, that would depend on the intent of the manufacturer. I just feel like "fantasy item" better describes them.

January 8, 2014
10:10 am
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any info on adina silversmith?

January 8, 2014
11:13 am
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As for the "adina sillversmith" didn't find out much.

He is an interesting Read.

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%20Disk3/Watertown%20Times/Watertown%20NY%20Daily%20Times%20%20March%201974%20Grayscale.pdf/Watertown%20NY%20Daily%20Times%20%20March%201974%20Grayscale%20-%200087.pdf

Also note the date and that this article is 40 Years old!

Just because its old doesn't mean its not FAKE!

Sincerely,
Maverick

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January 9, 2014
5:25 pm
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Regarding the Adina silver belt buckle, when I was the patent and trademark counsel for Winchester Western, there were many third parties producing various items bearing the Winchester trademark. Some of the items were belt buckles, tables, clocks, cigarette lighters, dishes, cannons, etc. These were all produced under licenses from Winchester to the third parties. All of the licenses required the third parties to send us samples of what they were producing so that we could check on the quality of the products. That quality control responsibility was mine. Thus these QC samples were sent to me for approval.

During that time, Adina came to us and requested a license to produce a limited number of silver Winchester belt buckles. They were going to reproduce the brass Winchester buckles in solid silver. Adina would sell the buckles and we would get a royalty. Before they could produce the buckles they had to send us a QC sample of the buckle for our approval. That buckle marked "PROOF" was the QC sample. Note that it has the Colt trademark on the back as well as the Winchester trademark. This is because they were apparently going to make Colt buckles too. The front of the buckle is our Winchester design.

When I left Winchester, I took some of the QC product samples with me since the rifle business had been sold to US Repeating Arms and a lot of the Winchester licensed products were no longer being produced. Some were continuing to be produced like the cannons by Bellmore Johnson, and a solid brass version of the Horse and Rider statue. The solid brass QC version of the Horse and Rider was sent to Olin's Stamford offices by me. The silver belt buckle production was sold out by then.

William W. Jones
Patent Counsel

January 9, 2014
5:52 pm
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"road king"
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Another good piece of Winchester History unearthed. 😀

January 10, 2014
8:22 am
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SPIROS said
Regarding the Adina silver belt buckle, when I was the patent and trademark counsel for Winchester Western, there were many third parties producing various items bearing the Winchester trademark. Some of the items were belt buckles, tables, clocks, cigarette lighters, dishes, cannons, etc. These were all produced under licenses from Winchester to the third parties. All of the licenses required the third parties to send us samples of what they were producing so that we could check on the quality of the products. That quality control responsibility was mine. Thus these QC samples were sent to me for approval.

During that time, Adina came to us and requested a license to produce a limited number of silver Winchester belt buckles. They were going to reproduce the brass Winchester buckles in solid silver. Adina would sell the buckles and we would get a royalty. Before they could produce the buckles they had to send us a QC sample of the buckle for our approval. That buckle marked "PROOF" was the QC sample. Note that it has the Colt trademark on the back as well as the Winchester trademark. This is because they were apparently going to make Colt buckles too. The front of the buckle is our Winchester design.

When I left Winchester, I took some of the QC product samples with me since the rifle business had been sold to US Repeating Arms and a lot of the Winchester licensed products were no longer being produced. Some were continuing to be produced like the cannons by Bellmore Johnson, and a solid brass version of the Horse and Rider statue. The solid brass QC version of the Horse and Rider was sent to Olin's Stamford offices by me. The silver belt buckle production was sold out by then.

William W. Jones
Patent Counsel

SPIROS
Your last post is/was confusing to me. Not to be a stickler but, If you are referencing a letter written by someone else it would make more sense to start out by saying so. Otherwise it reads more like you are the Patent Lawyer making a statement.

Not to say I doubt your story, but would say so what. Ok you got one "Prototype" Belt Buckle that may or may not have been licensed by Olin to be produced from some time frame between 1968-1982. Its most certainly not a antique by any means. And its not a Pre-Olin Corp involvement, solely Winchester produced product. Wouldn't have much Collector value and probably not worth much more than the amount of silver that is on it or in it or so on, in my opinion.

"Road King"
Seems like once a month another great piece of Winchester History is unearthed and done so that John Q seller can rip off John Q buyer.

Anybody want to buy some Antique Winchester cuff-links? Wink I mean really What is Next?

Sincerely,
Maverick

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January 10, 2014
10:07 am
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"road king"
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Maverick, I could clearly see that the post was a letter written by PATENT LAWYER by the subject title.(Post subject: Re: PATENT LAWYER LETTER) If Spiros has this signed letter from William W. Jones ,Patent Counsel for Winchester and it goes with the PROOFed marked buckle it will avoid someone saying that some sweat shop in India produced these buckles for profit off the Winchester name. The photos that SPIROS also supplied showing Mr. Jones will also help. I am sure there is likely more evidence that can be put with the items mentioned that will help in the future take away any doubt of their authentic connect to Winchester. Yes I agree they are not antique now but for future collectors I am sure they will become very collectable and desirable.

January 13, 2014
10:11 am
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"Road King" said
I am sure there is likely more evidence that can be put with the items mentioned that will help in the future take away any doubt of their authentic connect to Winchester. Yes I agree they are not antique now but for future collectors I am sure they will become very collectable and desirable.

I agree that one day down the road such an item will become very collectible. I tend to cry Wolf a lot of the times but always want to be cautious. Of any "Winchester Belt Buckle" I have seen out there SPIROS's is the most believable story I have seen yet but I still have my reservations. I can't help finding it hard to believe.

Especially when I see all these brass ones on Ebay for sale for around $10.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/3-Vintage-BELT-BUCKLES-Winchester-Rifle-Alabama-Oklahoma-Army-National-Guard-/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/z/TacAAOxyRhBS1CDb/$_3.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Vintage-Winchester-Repeating-Arms-New-Haven-Conn-Belt-Buckle-1979-360-Belt-/00/s/ODk4WDE2MDA=/z/PAEAAOxyTjNSooO6/$_57.JPG

http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=112568&image=729431666&images=729431666,729431684&formats=0,0&format=0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WINCHESTER-RIFLE-FIREARMS-GUNS-BELT-BUCKLE-1970S-VINTAGE-DIE-CAST-COLLECTABLE-/310842842410?pt=US_Men_s_Belt_Buckles&hash=item485fad5d2a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Winchester-Repeating-Arms-New-Haven-Conn-Belt-Buckle-A-156-HEAVY-/390745102294?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5afa3917d6
And the list could go on further.

Sincerely,
Maverick

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January 13, 2014
7:41 pm
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I agree that's good information. Apparently, Adina did produce and sell some the the silver buckles under license from Winchester. The Colt marking on the back still doesn't make much sense. Was it only on the QC sample, or others as well? And what did Tiffany have to do with them?

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