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November 19, 2006
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Chuck said
Nevada Paul said
Chuck said
In P. O. Ackley’s book on page 329 he shows a load for a 25-20 WCF with an 86 gr. bullet and 5.5 grs. of Unique for 1,795 fps.
8.5 grs. of 4227 will get 1,400 fps. 10.5 grs. of 4227 he says will get you 1,725 fps. He also shows 2 loads with a 60 gr. bullet but these he uses 2400, 11.5 gr for 2,200 fps. and 4227, 12.5 grs. for 2,150 fps.
Start low and work up….
Chuck, I have Ackley’s volumes from way back in the day. Colorful and inventive guy, and interesting reading. But Ackley, much like Elmer Keith, seemed to have a bent to maximize velocity from every cartridge they encountered. While that may be a worthwhile endeavor, it gave me great reluctance to jump into any of their loading data.
Paul
Not just Ackley and Keith. The other thing is the older powders weren’t as hot as the same powder today. My chrono has found this out many times.
This is a very important point. It makes the old loading book data’s applicability questionable. Start low, work up slowly and use a chrono if possible. I’ll bet Chuck will agree with me on this.
March 31, 2009
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Steve I definitely agree. I collect old manuals and have never started a load development without a chronograph. I use the data in the old manuals but always start low and work up. Remember, speed alone does not give you what the actual chamber pressure is. Some powders will go over the safe pressure before it hits the speed.
December 12, 2019
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Chuck said
Steve I definitely agree. I collect old manuals and have never started a load development without a chronograph. I use the data in the old manuals but always start low and work up. Remember, speed alone does not give you what the actual chamber pressure is. Some powders will go over the safe pressure before it hits the speed.
I, too, collect old manuals and enjoy perusing and comparing loads across time.
And yes, it is obvious that newer manuals often show ‘lighter loads’ than older manuals, all other things being equal.
But I’ve attributed this difference to liability and legal concerns more so than the newer powders being ‘hotter’.
NP
Nevada Paul
Life Member NRA
April 15, 2005
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Nevada Paul said
Chuck said
Steve I definitely agree. I collect old manuals and have never started a load development without a chronograph. I use the data in the old manuals but always start low and work up. Remember, speed alone does not give you what the actual chamber pressure is. Some powders will go over the safe pressure before it hits the speed.
I, too, collect old manuals and enjoy perusing and comparing loads across time.
And yes, it is obvious that newer manuals often show ‘lighter loads’ than older manuals, all other things being equal.
But I’ve attributed this difference to liability and legal concerns more so than the newer powders being ‘hotter’.
NP
I agree… the powders of today (e.g. IMR 4198, A2400, IMR 4227, IMR 3031 are in reality no “hotter’ than they were 50 years ago. It is the legal eagles and the implied liability that has driven the revised (reduced) loading for them in the modern reloading manuals.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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I like the Wilson/Hackathorn video, Bert. My compact carry guns get shot a fair bit and my policy as of this year is “short gun, short spring life”. Recoil spring in my little Defender failed after a few years. Springs are cheap. My Guvmint 1911 only needs a new spring once in a blue moon, if then. Thanks to the video I now know why!
The 1903 has some design features I find interesting, will need to get a better look at the frame. Saw some things in the above pics I haven’t seen before. Neat gun!
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said
I like the Wilson/Hackathorn video, Bert. My compact carry guns get shot a fair bit and my policy as of this year is “short gun, short spring life”. Recoil spring in my little Defender failed after a few years. Springs are cheap. My Guvmint 1911 only needs a new spring once in a blue moon, if then. Thanks to the video I now know why!
The 1903 has some design features I find interesting, will need to get a better look at the frame. Saw some things in the above pics I haven’t seen before. Neat gun!
Mike
Flat coil springs are definitely superior to coil wire springs for both consistency and durability. I have shot at least 8,000 rounds through 92F with P+ loads and it keeps on ticking like a Swiss clock. The physics of its design are what makes it so damn reliable. Why the pistol manufacturing industry has not adopted them as a standard feature is beyond me.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Nevada Paul said
Chuck said
Steve I definitely agree. I collect old manuals and have never started a load development without a chronograph. I use the data in the old manuals but always start low and work up. Remember, speed alone does not give you what the actual chamber pressure is. Some powders will go over the safe pressure before it hits the speed.
I, too, collect old manuals and enjoy perusing and comparing loads across time.
And yes, it is obvious that newer manuals often show ‘lighter loads’ than older manuals, all other things being equal.
But I’ve attributed this difference to liability and legal concerns more so than the newer powders being ‘hotter’.
NP
I agree about the liability issue for the new manuals. But not so for the older manuals. I’ve been using a chrono for at least 35 years and it proves my point. You better start low and work up when using the old data. Most of the new manuals don’t even list data for most of the old calibers.
January 20, 2023
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Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
I like the Wilson/Hackathorn video, Bert. My compact carry guns get shot a fair bit and my policy as of this year is “short gun, short spring life”. Recoil spring in my little Defender failed after a few years. Springs are cheap. My Guvmint 1911 only needs a new spring once in a blue moon, if then. Thanks to the video I now know why!
The 1903 has some design features I find interesting, will need to get a better look at the frame. Saw some things in the above pics I haven’t seen before. Neat gun!
Mike
Flat coil springs are definitely superior to coil wire springs for both consistency and durability. I have shot at least 8,000 rounds through 92F with P+ loads and it keeps on ticking like a Swiss clock. The physics of its design are what makes it so damn reliable. Why the pistol manufacturing industry has not adopted them as a standard feature is beyond me.
Bert
I’ve inherited a Taurus semi-clone of the Beretta, the difference being it doesn’t have a hammer dropper and is carried cocked and locked. Belonged to an old bullseye competitor and the SA trigger is mighty good. I think I’ll order a flat wire recoil spring from Wilson.
Mike, all the compact blasters wear their spring sets out at 1000 to 1500 rounds. Sig says replace every 1k for the P365.
I liked my Defender but like my CCO Commander better – since it isn’t EDC. The time window for ejection/reloading is not nearly so critical. Regilar spring set replacement on the 3″ shorties is extra important if they are social equipment.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Bill-
Number I heard for the Defender is 2000 and it actually lasted longer than that before it started having trouble. My new P365 is coming up on that 1000 round mark, guess I better have a recoil spring handy next time I clean it. It likes a full case of Unique but there are cleaner powders. I just happen to have lots of Unique.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said
My new P365 is coming up on that 1000 round mark, guess I better have a recoil spring handy next time I clean it. It likes a full case of Unique but there are cleaner powders. I just happen to have lots of Unique.
Mike
Yes there is… I stopped loading with Unique because it is a dirty powder, and it takes significantly less Bullseye to get the same result as compared to loading with Unique. You being the miser that you are can certainly relate to that
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
My new P365 is coming up on that 1000 round mark, guess I better have a recoil spring handy next time I clean it. It likes a full case of Unique but there are cleaner powders. I just happen to have lots of Unique.
Mike
Yes there is… I stopped loading with Unique because it is a dirty powder, and it takes significantly less Bullseye to get the same result as compared to loading with Unique. You being the miser that you are can certainly relate to that
Bert
I use what I have, Bert. Not sure I can afford powder today. All kidding aside “Flaming Dirt” (Unique) is actually fairly clean in some of the loads I use it for. Unique is also a very versatile powder, it may not be ideal for every cartridge but it works for many of the cartridges I like. Many levergun cartridges can be loaded with 8-10 grains of Unique for fun plinking loads. Can’t get much cheaper than that, especially when my bullets are recycled wheel weights. My EDC guns collect lint, sweat and grit so when I decide they need cleaning I’ll go run a box of ammo through it to make sure it needs cleaning.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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The last versions of Unique burn cleaner than previously and it is somewhat faster. Both my Smith & Wesson 57 and 29-2 have 8 3/8″ barrels and stiff loads of Unique burn clean. I don’t have reason to shoot 1500 fs loads in either of them and they don’t lock up at the yoke like the new guns. 950- 1000 fs with 210 and 240 cast lead is comfortable, fun, and doesn’t loosen the lockwork. think Unique needs barrel time to burn completely. Bullseye doesn’t.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
Online
TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
My new P365 is coming up on that 1000 round mark, guess I better have a recoil spring handy next time I clean it. It likes a full case of Unique but there are cleaner powders. I just happen to have lots of Unique.
Mike
Yes there is… I stopped loading with Unique because it is a dirty powder, and it takes significantly less Bullseye to get the same result as compared to loading with Unique. You being the miser that you are can certainly relate to that
Bert
I use what I have, Bert. Not sure I can afford powder today. All kidding aside “Flaming Dirt” (Unique) is actually fairly clean in some of the loads I use it for. Unique is also a very versatile powder, it may not be ideal for every cartridge but it works for many of the cartridges I like. Many levergun cartridges can be loaded with 8-10 grains of Unique for fun plinking loads. Can’t get much cheaper than that, especially when my bullets are recycled wheel weights. My EDC guns collect lint, sweat and grit so when I decide they need cleaning I’ll go run a box of ammo through it to make sure it needs cleaning.
Mike
Someday when you run low on the Unique, I recommend switching horses and going with the Bullseye. The problem I had with Unique is that it craps up the semi-auto pistols fairly fast (not so bad in a revolver). I do not know if the newer Unique is any cleaner than the old stuff, but because I have nearly 10-lbs of Bullseye on hand, I am unlikely to ever change my recipes.
7,000 / 5.0 = 1,400 9 MM loads/lb.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
As a former PPC and Outdoor Pistol (Bullseye) shooter I’m familiar with BE. I haven’t shot a match gun in over 20 years but I probably have a few pounds of BE stashed somewhere even though I generally used 231. I have an 8lb bottle of Unique plus a handful of one pound bottles so I’m set for awhile. My 9mm Unique load is only 1.2 grs more than your BE load (under a 115gr bullet) but that means you get nearly 300 more rounds/pound so your point is valid. My mentor gave me that load over 40 years ago and it’s the only load I remembered after not loading for the 9mm for over 30 years. Unique is very dirty in a moderate 38 Spl load but is actually fairly clean in a max 9mm load. It also works well in straight walled rifle cases up to and including the 45-70 but I don’t have much data for Unique in the bottleneck cartridges other than 38WCF, that’s why this thread caught my eye. I don’t think it worked as well as 231 in the 32WCF but it’s possibly because my 32WCF load only uses about 3 grains of 231. Other than appearance I don’t think the 25WCF and 32WCF have much in common but I haven’t started my 25WCF adventure yet.
Mike
March 3, 2020
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TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
My new P365 is coming up on that 1000 round mark, guess I better have a recoil spring handy next time I clean it. It likes a full case of Unique but there are cleaner powders. I just happen to have lots of Unique.
Mike
Yes there is… I stopped loading with Unique because it is a dirty powder, and it takes significantly less Bullseye to get the same result as compared to loading with Unique. You being the miser that you are can certainly relate to that
Bert
I use what I have, Bert. Not sure I can afford powder today. All kidding aside “Flaming Dirt” (Unique) is actually fairly clean in some of the loads I use it for. Unique is also a very versatile powder, it may not be ideal for every cartridge but it works for many of the cartridges I like. Many levergun cartridges can be loaded with 8-10 grains of Unique for fun plinking loads. Can’t get much cheaper than that, especially when my bullets are recycled wheel weights. My EDC guns collect lint, sweat and grit so when I decide they need cleaning I’ll go run a box of ammo through it to make sure it needs cleaning.
Mike
I use 10gr of Unique with great success in Cowboy Lever-gun Silhouette, in my 38-55 1894. Soft shooter, knocks the rams down at 200 yards.
April 15, 2005
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John D. said
TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
My new P365 is coming up on that 1000 round mark, guess I better have a recoil spring handy next time I clean it. It likes a full case of Unique but there are cleaner powders. I just happen to have lots of Unique.
Mike
Yes there is… I stopped loading with Unique because it is a dirty powder, and it takes significantly less Bullseye to get the same result as compared to loading with Unique. You being the miser that you are can certainly relate to that
Bert
I use what I have, Bert. Not sure I can afford powder today. All kidding aside “Flaming Dirt” (Unique) is actually fairly clean in some of the loads I use it for. Unique is also a very versatile powder, it may not be ideal for every cartridge but it works for many of the cartridges I like. Many levergun cartridges can be loaded with 8-10 grains of Unique for fun plinking loads. Can’t get much cheaper than that, especially when my bullets are recycled wheel weights. My EDC guns collect lint, sweat and grit so when I decide they need cleaning I’ll go run a box of ammo through it to make sure it needs cleaning.
Mike
I use 10gr of Unique with great success in Cowboy Lever-gun Silhouette, in my 38-55 1894. Soft shooter, knocks the rams down at 200 yards.
I have not ever tried Unique for loading the 38-55. What weight bullet are you using, and what velocity are you getting?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 3, 2020
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Bert H. said
John D. said
TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
My new P365 is coming up on that 1000 round mark, guess I better have a recoil spring handy next time I clean it. It likes a full case of Unique but there are cleaner powders. I just happen to have lots of Unique.
Mike
Yes there is… I stopped loading with Unique because it is a dirty powder, and it takes significantly less Bullseye to get the same result as compared to loading with Unique. You being the miser that you are can certainly relate to that
Bert
I use what I have, Bert. Not sure I can afford powder today. All kidding aside “Flaming Dirt” (Unique) is actually fairly clean in some of the loads I use it for. Unique is also a very versatile powder, it may not be ideal for every cartridge but it works for many of the cartridges I like. Many levergun cartridges can be loaded with 8-10 grains of Unique for fun plinking loads. Can’t get much cheaper than that, especially when my bullets are recycled wheel weights. My EDC guns collect lint, sweat and grit so when I decide they need cleaning I’ll go run a box of ammo through it to make sure it needs cleaning.
Mike
I use 10gr of Unique with great success in Cowboy Lever-gun Silhouette, in my 38-55 1894. Soft shooter, knocks the rams down at 200 yards.
I have not ever tried Unique for loading the 38-55. What weight bullet are you using, and what velocity are you getting?
Bert
I use both a Bear Creek 240gr moly coated as well as a Montana 255gr cast lead bullet with the 10gr of Unique. I don’t recall the velocity offhand, but seem to remember it was in the 1200-1300 range.
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