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I guess I don’t appreciate the extent of this as I don’t personally see it, at least not at the ranges I frequent. So it seems unusual that anyone buys any of these early lever guns at all. And so how many of you are shooting these lever action rifles for which ammunition/brass is not readily available? And how often? And what percentage is this of firearms you own?
In my case, I fire them, but less than I would like to due to work, component limitations, and conservation of resources.
As far as lack of ease of availability, I’m most interested in 1873s that aren’t in .38-40, 44-40, or .22; 1876s, 1886s in anything other than .45-70, 1894s not in .30-30, and 1885s in oddball calibers.
Do you specifically buy a cosmetically challenged firearm and look at the bore with the ultimate goal of a rifle in a hard to find caliber even for brass to be a shooter?
I look at the bores in all of the rifles I plan to buy. Except for the Henry, 66 and the Lee Navy because I never thought I’d shoot them. That may have been a mistake?? I don’t mind the challenge of loading the less collectable calibers. It is part of the fun. Where I shoot there are all types of rifles. Always some lever actions and single shot reproductions. But mostly hunting, target and AR rifles.
Right now, everything is a challenge. If I were to build a new target rifle it would take over a year to get all of the parts. Brass, primers and powder are a problem. I go through at least 3,000 primers a year. In the last few years, I have had to change every component a few times due to lack of availability. Each change causes me to go through a lengthy load development to find the load my barrel likes.
Our Winchesters are worse, but most things can be found, eventually.
This is an interesting topic. I can see Ian’s point and it actually matches my experience. Even though I shoot and load for a large variety of obsolete and oddball cartridges, my range experience matches Ian’s. I’ve been going to the same range for 39 years. It’s fairly large, has a good amount of traffic and there’s always a couple range masters on duty. The people shooting there shooting anything like what I shoot represent less than 1% of the shooters. AR’s Ak’s (rifle and pistol versions of both), modern handguns, and then hunting rifles. The typical shooters there seem to have an endless amount of ammunition and don’t take their time when it comes to emptying their high capacity magazine. This is not handloaded ammunition they are shooting.
I am often shooting Winchester 73’s, 86’s, 92’s, 94’s, 95’s , Marlins in similar chamberings ,as well as Bullards, Whitney-Kennedy’s, Colt Express rifles and so on. These rifles routinely draw zero attention!
I was raised on a farm in Wisconsin where I hunted deer, ducks, and pheasants. I walked out the the back door and started hunting. The only time I’ve been to a rifle range was my time in the military. That doesn’t stop me from shooting collectible antique guns anywhere safe on my property and I do. I’m fortunate to live in a rural area which allows me to enjoy my hobby on a whim. I shoot all my collectible center fire guns regardless of how odd the caliber or how much effort it takes to load it, that’s part of the hobby. Using the gun is like driving the collector car.
If the bore matches the condition of the rifle and the gun can be loaded to shoot straight, I’m happy. I hate a high condition gun with a bad bore no matter how odd the caliber is or how little I’m going to use it. I can’t get past the fact that someone neglected the bore and ruined the gun. It does affect the value of the gun because I’m not alone in that opinion. T/R
steve004 said
This is an interesting topic. I can see Ian’s point and it actually matches my experience. Even though I shoot and load for a large variety of obsolete and oddball cartridges, my range experience matches Ian’s. I’ve been going to the same range for 39 years. It’s fairly large, has a good amount of traffic and there’s always a couple range masters on duty. The people shooting there shooting anything like what I shoot represent less than 1% of the shooters. AR’s Ak’s (rifle and pistol versions of both), modern handguns, and then hunting rifles. The typical shooters there seem to have an endless amount of ammunition and don’t take their time when it comes to emptying their high capacity magazine. This is not handloaded ammunition they are shooting.I am often shooting Winchester 73’s, 86’s, 92’s, 94’s, 95’s , Marlins in similar chamberings ,as well as Bullards, Whitney-Kennedy’s, Colt Express rifles and so on. These rifles routinely draw zero attention!
In my case, the oddball stuff I shoot draws zero attention about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time it draws attention to the point of bordering on annoying, which makes me wish I had my own private range. I like teaching, but I wish it caused at least one person want to go out and buy something like what I shoot. Even something with no finish. I tend to fire firearms in the 70 to 90% range with a few a bit less in condition.
My ranges get a fair amount of traffic, your commonplace rifles manufactured in the last 10 years tends to be the trend. Very few even with walnut or other wood stocks.
November 7, 2015
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My club range is well known for precision shooting, centerfire and rimfire. These guys spend more money on bench rests and optics than most of my “top end” Winchesters are worth. I load and cast for several lever gun cartridges, 32WCF, 38WCF, 38-55, 32-40, 30WCF, 32Spl, 348 and 375 Winchester. I also load and cast for the 45-70 and 45-90 but at the moment I have no Winchesters chambered for those cartridges. I have so far avoided the 25-20 repeater, 44WCF, and 25-35. I can’t recall the last time I bought factory ammo for any of the above, other than the 348. My old leverguns can’t keep up with most of the precision shooters but they make some of the deer hunters look pretty silly this time of year. If another member or guest shows an interest I’ll talk to them about the Winchesters I’m shooting and if possible offer to let them shoot a round or two. Few take me up on it. Some have a hard time believing these old Winchesters will keep up with their modern scoped rifles. When they see a freshly cast lead bullet on top of my rounds they don’t know what to think. Rimfires get a similar reaction but that’s a bit off topic.
I’m learning to avoid the “cosmetically challenged” Winchesters but looking over my collection it’s obvious I’m drawn to a 70-80% or better Model 1894/94 as that is my most popular centerfire Winchester even after thinning the herd a bit. I wrote an article involving the 32-40 recently and it required a bit of load development and range time so most of my rifle range time was dominated by the 32-40 and occasionally some fun time with .22’s. As my rifles have been at an undisclosed location since our May 25 tornado and my loading room packed in boxes with some in a storage container out back, others with my guns and reference library. These old Winchesters make up less than half of my collection but they’re the fun part of my collection, along with a few scatterguns that have a tenuous connection to our beloved John Moses Browning. I also shoot a Model 12 now and then just to remind the clay shooters what a real shotgun looks like. The rest are social equipment and hunting rifles that are outside the focus of this forum.
To your point, Ian, I seldom see another vintage, antique or otherwise, Winchester on the firing line when I’m on our club rifle range. I doubt it’s happened more than once a year. Many of our members do indeed own old Winchesters but they don’t shoot them often.
Mike
Ian, To some extent you do have a point. Regulars at the rifle range tend to shoot modern stuff. Then we have our metallic silhouette shoots every month or so and there you will find models 1886, (including mine), models 1894 (rather popular to include fairly new versions), one Colt slide action in .44WCF, etc., plus various Marlins.
I have shot most every caliber through some pretty nice rifles but when I do that, I try to get them out when there is no one else on the range. The fewer that know what I have and collect the better. Plus I keep the nice ones in my truck until time to shoot. Once in a while there are assholes who don’t understand the common courtesy of not picking up someone else’s rifle or handling it. I reload and shoot .50 EX and .50-100-450 a little. There are calibers I don’t shoot for strange reasons (often just don’t get around to it). I like take downs as easier to clean up properly from the breech, etc. Do I shoot every rifle I collect? No, but I do have the ability and at times the willingness. Tim
PS. I shoot about every model 1895, too!!
Once in a while there are assholes who don’t understand the common courtesy of not picking up someone else’s rifle or handling it. tim tomlinson said
Just about unbelievable–I’d have known better at the age of 8; or make that 6. If this is a club range, I’d demand that such a moron be thrown out as a club liability risk.
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
Once in a while there are assholes who don’t understand the common courtesy of not picking up someone else’s rifle or handling it. tim tomlinson said
Just about unbelievable–I’d have known better at the age of 8; or make that 6. If this is a club range, I’d demand that such a moron be thrown out as a club liability risk.
That’s not a problem at my club, safety and courtesy are very important and we have a paid range officer along with several board members who ride herd almost to the point of being overzealous. I shot on and occasionally worked on public ranges for much of my shooting career and at this point would hate to give up my private club range for a public range. Now that I’m retired I’m looking forward to spending weekdays on the range, most days I’ll have the place to myself with maybe a couple other shooters.
Mike
TXGunNut said Now that I’m retired I’m looking forward to spending weekdays on the range, most days I’ll have the place to myself with maybe a couple other shooters.
Ditto for me, except if I see “others,” I go home. But doesn’t happen often, as I never show up until late in day.
tim tomlinson said
Ian, To some extent you do have a point. Regulars at the rifle range tend to shoot modern stuff. Then we have our metallic silhouette shoots every month or so and there you will find models 1886, (including mine), models 1894 (rather popular to include fairly new versions), one Colt slide action in .44WCF, etc., plus various Marlins.I have shot most every caliber through some pretty nice rifles but when I do that, I try to get them out when there is no one else on the range. The fewer that know what I have and collect the better. Plus I keep the nice ones in my truck until time to shoot. Once in a while there are assholes who don’t understand the common courtesy of not picking up someone else’s rifle or handling it. I reload and shoot .50 EX and .50-100-450 a little. There are calibers I don’t shoot for strange reasons (often just don’t get around to it). I like take downs as easier to clean up properly from the breech, etc. Do I shoot every rifle I collect? No, but I do have the ability and at times the willingness. Tim
PS. I shoot about every model 1895, too!!
So how do you shoot when no one else is around? I try to accomplish that when I can, but sometimes it’s impossible and someone can always show up while you are in the middle of shooting. Then you have to be polite and coordinate when to walk down range. Plus, I shoot better when alone—less distractions. When I’m alone, I don’t have to advertise what I have. Most are too ignorant to know what I have. And, like you said, someone every now and again has to impolitely handle my firearm. I never ask to handle their black plastic junk.
I’ve shot at 4 or 5 private ranges, all operated by law enforcement when I was a Deputy. I now have the pleasure of shooting out my back door, or the kitchen window in winter. None of my guns would be considered collector grade. One or two maybe considered scarce. I have as much fun making brass for the unobtanium as I do shooting them. I do have a lathe I use in making 351,401, and 32 colt. The other calibers just running thru the sizing die and trim is sufficient.i cast and load 218,25-20,25-35,30-30,32ws,32-40,38-55,45-60, 32-20,38-40,44-40,45-70,40-82,38-70. The most difficult so far has been trying to make 225 cases w/o crushing necks.
November 7, 2015
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mrcvs said
tim tomlinson said
Ian, To some extent you do have a point. Regulars at the rifle range tend to shoot modern stuff. Then we have our metallic silhouette shoots every month or so and there you will find models 1886, (including mine), models 1894 (rather popular to include fairly new versions), one Colt slide action in .44WCF, etc., plus various Marlins.
I have shot most every caliber through some pretty nice rifles but when I do that, I try to get them out when there is no one else on the range. The fewer that know what I have and collect the better. Plus I keep the nice ones in my truck until time to shoot. Once in a while there are assholes who don’t understand the common courtesy of not picking up someone else’s rifle or handling it. I reload and shoot .50 EX and .50-100-450 a little. There are calibers I don’t shoot for strange reasons (often just don’t get around to it). I like take downs as easier to clean up properly from the breech, etc. Do I shoot every rifle I collect? No, but I do have the ability and at times the willingness. Tim
PS. I shoot about every model 1895, too!!
So how do you shoot when no one else is around? I try to accomplish that when I can, but sometimes it’s impossible and someone can always show up while you are in the middle of shooting. Then you have to be polite and coordinate when to walk down range. Plus, I shoot better when alone—less distractions. When I’m alone, I don’t have to advertise what I have. Most are too ignorant to know what I have. And, like you said, someone every now and again has to impolitely handle my firearm. I never ask to handle their black plastic junk.
At my club range we have a rifle range with targets at 50, 100 and 200 yards. Next range over is a 50 yard range I call the .22 rifle range, then a multipurpose range out to 50 yards with an adjacent action range behind the berm. Next are two pistol bays, one with metallic targets. All are separated by tall walls so shooters must only coordinate with shooters on the range they are shooting on. My only problem with other shooters is that some of them would rather shoot the sh!t than live ammo so I have to be very deliberate when going hot. The weekday guys are often nearly deaf .22 shooters. I like visiting with other shooters, now and then they have an interesting insight and some are interested in my old Winchesters. I try to be an ambassador for our affliction. We will someday need someone to become the next custodians of our beloved Winchesters and enable our ungrateful heirs to take cruises or invest in Bitcoin.
I haven’t been to the range in months, my favorite guns are in storage and my loading room is dismantled. I may retrieve my fancy rig and .45 for events the next two weekends. My rough duty .45 needs a break. All this range talk is making me want to liberate a rifle or two but it will likely be a .22. Y’all go shoot an old Winchester this weekend! I damn sure would if I could!
Mike
TR said
I was raised on a farm in Wisconsin where I hunted deer, ducks, and pheasants. I walked out the the back door and started hunting. The only time I’ve been to a rifle range was my time in the military. That doesn’t stop me from shooting collectible antique guns anywhere safe on my property and I do. I’m fortunate to live in a rural area which allows me to enjoy my hobby on a whim. I shoot all my collectible center fire guns regardless of how odd the caliber or how much effort it takes to load it, that’s part of the hobby. Using the gun is like driving the collector car.If the bore matches the condition of the rifle and the gun can be loaded to shoot straight, I’m happy. I hate a high condition gun with a bad bore no matter how odd the caliber is or how little I’m going to use it. I can’t get past the fact that someone neglected the bore and ruined the gun. It does affect the value of the gun because I’m not alone in that opinion. T/R
This is a situation I dream of. If I had a place like this – where I lived there – I would likely shoot most every day. There is a family farm that remains in my family and it is a wonderful place to shoot. The only problem is it’s a 400 mile round trip! As it is, I shoot rarely these days. Except for the month before hunting season, my range is only open one or two weekdays and Saturdays. I work during the week. Saturdays are always a zoo. When I first started going there, very few people were shooting the various AR/AK platform rifles. For the last several years, that’s been all the rage. Sitting close by with magazine after magazine (and we’re not talking five-round magazines) being emptied is highly unpleasant for me. The worst is .308 high capacity semi-autos with compensators. Compensators are of course designed to direct much of the blast away from the shooter (i.e. to the guys on the bench on either side). I’ve had the scenario where I’ve had one going on each side of me. I try to shoot when they are refilling their magazines. The other irritant is having hot brass bounce off me while I’m shooting. Not only is what I describing highly unpleasant, but to try to get into the zone to do some accurate (and enjoyable) shooting is impossible. I’m often too distracted and too irritated. As I write this I’m imagining Clarence’s horror picturing such a scenario.
Back to T/R’s situation, I am green with envy. I’m a guy who would enjoy shooting every day but instead rarely shoot.
steve004 said
TR said
I was raised on a farm in Wisconsin where I hunted deer, ducks, and pheasants. I walked out the the back door and started hunting. The only time I’ve been to a rifle range was my time in the military. That doesn’t stop me from shooting collectible antique guns anywhere safe on my property and I do. I’m fortunate to live in a rural area which allows me to enjoy my hobby on a whim. I shoot all my collectible center fire guns regardless of how odd the caliber or how much effort it takes to load it, that’s part of the hobby. Using the gun is like driving the collector car.
If the bore matches the condition of the rifle and the gun can be loaded to shoot straight, I’m happy. I hate a high condition gun with a bad bore no matter how odd the caliber is or how little I’m going to use it. I can’t get past the fact that someone neglected the bore and ruined the gun. It does affect the value of the gun because I’m not alone in that opinion. T/R
This is a situation I dream of. If I had a place like this – where I lived there – I would likely shoot most every day. There is a family farm that remains in my family and it is a wonderful place to shoot. The only problem is it’s a 400 mile round trip! As it is, I shoot rarely these days. Except for the month before hunting season, my range is only open one or two weekdays and Saturdays. I work during the week. Saturdays are always a zoo. When I first started going there, very few people were shooting the various AR/AK platform rifles. For the last several years, that’s been all the rage. Sitting close by with magazine after magazine (and we’re not talking five-round magazines) being emptied is highly unpleasant for me. The worst is .308 high capacity semi-autos with compensators. Compensators are of course designed to direct much of the blast away from the shooter (i.e. to the guys on the bench on either side). I’ve had the scenario where I’ve had one going on each side of me. I try to shoot when they are refilling their magazines. The other irritant is having hot brass bounce off me while I’m shooting. Not only is what I describing highly unpleasant, but to try to get into the zone to do some accurate (and enjoyable) shooting is impossible. I’m often too distracted and too irritated. As I write this I’m imagining Clarence’s horror picturing such a scenario.
Back to T/R’s situation, I am green with envy. I’m a guy who would enjoy shooting every day but instead rarely shoot.
Me, too! The problem is, simply put, the population of this country has gotten too large, at the expense of affordable homes and farms with land on which one can shoot privately. A place with “a lot of land” where I live is one or two acres. Pathetic…
Ian, since you asked–here is a description of my area and gun club. We are a physically large county that is sparsely populated. I no longer recall the county population, but people per square mile is fairly low for being in IL. The private gun club has a bit short of 400 members of which many either don’t shoot or don’t shoot much. We are unattended and open 365 days per year and 24 hours per day. Access is by combination lock and ditto for the indoor range. There are times local law enforcement requests exclusive use and the range is not open to members, but generally it is open all the time. Rifle range outdoors is limited to daylight. Trap range the same unless it is a club event when the lights are then available. The 50 foot indoor range (7 lanes) is open all the time. The outdoor rifle/pistol range has target berms at 25, 50, 100, 200 and 300 yards. It has a covered firing line with 5 bays. We would love to have longer range capability but we are lucky to have what we have. I live a mile away and I can determine most of the time if the range is in use by listening outdoors. If I feel like shooting and hear nothing I load up. I don’t have to pull out a nice Winchester rifle if I don’t think the company on the range is trustworthy in keeping their mouths shut as to what they may see. Its not fool proof, but generally works for me. There are folks who shoot religiously on certain days and I try to join them on occasion. Do I know all of the members? Not by a long shot! But over the years I do know a substantial number. This morning was our benchrest competition. I do not shoot a lever action in that. Tim
mrcvs said Plus, I shoot better when alone—less distractions.
Of course! That’s why I’d leave if someone happened to show up; luckily, doesn’t happen often.
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
mrcvs said Plus, I shoot better when alone—less distractions.
Of course! That’s why I’d leave if someone happened to show up; luckily, doesn’t happen often.
Hasn’t happened lately but I happen to know the steel cases from an SKS will dent a walnut stock.OTOH I have a Contender with a muzzle brake that will absolutely clear out positions on both sides! Membership in a private club is quite likely the best money I spend every year.
Mike
This thread has caused me to renew my appreciation for where I live here in rural northern Nevada.
I spent most of my career in Nevada, doing mining exploration out in the mountains and desert, and always had firearms in the truck. Never thought twice about it, it was just a way of life.
Nevada is about 87% federal land, mostly BLM and USFS, with of course, some famous and less well known military installations. I first thought all the federal ownership would be a negative, but what it boils down to is wide open spaces, thousands of miles of dirt and gravel roads with no locked gates and few fences.
Finding a place to shoot, even long range rifle, has never been a problem or much of a concern.
There are two public ranges within 20 miles from my house. But honestly, I can just drive out into the sagebrush easier and closer for most of my shooting.
I’ve lived a blessed life!
NP
Nevada Paul
Life Member NRA
TXGunNut said
clarence said
mrcvs said Plus, I shoot better when alone—less distractions.
Of course! That’s why I’d leave if someone happened to show up; luckily, doesn’t happen often.
Hasn’t happened lately but I happen to know the steel cases from an SKS will dent a walnut stock.OTOH I have a Contender with a muzzle brake that will absolutely clear out positions on both sides! Membership in a private club is quite likely the best money I spend every year.
Mike
Mike – the good news for those shooters on the benches next to you is that the Contender is not capable of rapid fire!
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