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Thanks Tim and Mike. I wish we could shoot together. I don’t have the best equipment but I can’t blame the equipment for my bad shots. One thing that could help me is to get a better front rest and get rid of the bipod. I just don’t want to loose the versatility of the bipod. I don’t plan to shoot competitions. Unless someone has one of these they’d give me.
November 7, 2015
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It would be fun, our interests are varied enough to make it interesting and educational. The benchrest guys at my club have rests that cost more than some of my best Winchesters and scopes in the same neighborhood. I’ve played with them, didn’t like them. I use a sandbag on top of a tripod on top of a wooden block for the end the bullets come out of and a complementary sand bag and block for the end where the loose nut hangs out.
May even slip out to the club today…after my nap.
Mike
Well, I took the correct gun to the range today and fired 23 rounds for my second attempt at fire forming. Almost all of the cases moved in one direction or another. I will continue down this path until all of them are very close to being the same.
I tried 3 different seating depths. I have no idea how far off the lands I am. I don’t have a tool or a modified case to figure this out. But, because the case necks are so short I will never be able to get any closer than I am right now. If this was a regular bolt action I would seat a bullet long, force it into the case, then move it into the case until the bolt would drop on it’s own. The longest of the 3 seating depths is showing powder leakage down the neck of the case. A sign that there is not enough bullet in the case to seal off.
I had uniformed the primer pocket depths and dropped the powder charge by .3 grains hoping to stop the primers from backing out. But, this may not be a pressure issue. My last round did not go off. The primer showed a hit but no primer ignition. When I got home I pulled the bullet, dumped out the powder and put in a new primer. I fired the gun will only the primer installed. This primer went off OK. Then I looked at the primer and saw that it too had backed out? I need to check the head space. I have measured the thickness of all of the rims and they are not exactly the same but even the ones that are what they should be or even thicker have the primers pushing back. Nobody makes a go/no go gauge for this rifle. I can add thickness to the bottom of the case gradually to see when it won’t chamber the case.
I took a target with a bright orange center and put it out at 50 yds. hoping I could see the target and the sights. 
November 7, 2015
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When I fire a case with no powder or bullet the primer generally backs out a bit as the case is not being pushed against the bolt by chamber pressure. I haven’t tried this with a minimum chamber gun, just sporting rifles.
Mike
I fire formed the cases for the third time. Of the 24 cases I have one short one and 5 longer ones. This case head spaces off the rim. So all I’m trying to do now is get the case volume the same. Base of the case to the shoulder. I’m not really concerned with the longer ones but I want the shorter one to grow about .010″. Full length sizing will get the longer ones shorter.
I’m going to reduce the powder charge some more. I’m getting FPS in the middle 2400’s to 2500 FPS. I would like to stay in the low to middle 2400’s. The temp was 51 degrees so I don’t know how much faster these could be in hotter weather? Like many loads I may have a summer charge weight and a winter charge weight. Some of the newer powders are not temperature sensitive. I’m not sure about the 4064.
This is the 2nd time one of the Winchester primers did not go off? I pulled the case out of the chamber and rotated it but no go. Hopefully I will shoot these again next Tuesday.
November 7, 2015
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I believe, based on my experience with Varget, that 4064 is somewhat temperature sensitive. I’ve been told Varget is simply a short grain version of 4064 and if that is true I can verify velocity does indeed increase with temperature. Before loads were published for this powder I tested it in a 22-250 and did attain the advertised 4000+ fps at ambient temps of over 100 degrees. Only problem was between the fast twist of the barrel and the thin bullet jackets I would sometimes lose bullets in a grey mist when the temps got into the triple digits. As my loads were not maximum (according to the magazine ad) the velocities with ambient temps in 80’s and 90’s were well under 4000 fps. I did not observe pressure signs.
Mike
Mike, since I can shoot year round I will eventually get to shoot this in all 4 seasons. I have shot Varget in one of my 308’s but I’d have to go back and look at the data. Currently I’m using VV N-150. It is a little sensitive. With my 2 target guns I have records of every shot and every target along with the long book full of notes.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Mike, since I can shoot year round I will eventually get to shoot this in all 4 seasons. I have shot Varget in one of my 308’s but I’d have to go back and look at the data. Currently I’m using VV N-150. It is a little sensitive. With my 2 target guns I have records of every shot and every target along with the long book full of notes.
My records are not nearly so complete. On top of that I seldom take the time to fuss with my Chrony or Labradar. I’ve always heard one of the strong points of VV powder is relative insensitivity to temperature. I think decreased sensitivity to temps, along with somehow reducing copper fouling, is one of the amazing things about modern powder.
Mike
Loaded my brass for the 4th attempt at fire forming. Reduced the charge weight to 29 grains from 29.7. This charge weight may be lower than what I want but I can gradually work up. I don’t expect the temperature at the range will be much warmer than last week. Hopefully this is my last attempt at fire forming. I’m going to use the 4 longest ones, base to shoulder, and send them and the f/l sizing die back to Whidden. I sent them an email just as a reminder. Need to get back in the garage. I am loading 2 calibers and cleaning 3 rifles. I just love cleaning guns.
November 7, 2015
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Temps in the teens here today, this Texas boy started a pot of beans after getting the percolator going. Heater isn’t keeping up so I’m going to fire up a casting furnace and make some bullets. May even carry the new bullets around in my pockets after they cool a bit. One rifle has been in my gun vise off and on for over a week, today may be the day I get it clean! Trying to gently clean these old rifles takes patience. I generally don’t have any lead fouling so I’m beginning to suspect a bit of throat erosion.
Days like today I wish my loading room window opened to my private shooting range but in real life a range trip will have to wait.
What are you loading today?
Mike
I am done loading the Lee Navy and some 308. I am cleaning the Lee, 308 and a 52. I messed up the crosshairs on the Lyman scope so won’t be shooting the 52 until I fix the cross hairs. May glue some fishing line on it or send it to someone that really knows how to fix scopes. I found a lot of copper in the Lee but finally got it all out. Borescopes are great but cause a lot of work. They will show you how bad your are actually cleaning. The new rifles that shoot very fast and produce a lot of pressure build up layers of copper and HARD carbon. Hard carbon is terrible to get out. Your patches come out clean but the borescope doesn’t lie.
Fire formed my brass for the 4th time. I measured the diameter of the case bodies in 4 locations and all of them are the same. The base to shoulder is still showing different lengths by a few thousandths but since the cases headspace off the rim it is not important. It does effect the case volume but as long as the die can take the longest one I’m OK. I contacted Whidden and they said to send them back with the die. I picked the 4 longest ones, base to shoulder.
As I said before I had lowered the grains of powder and I think this helped out. I have had to clean a lot of copper out of the barrel after each trip to the range. So, the first few rounds shot just below my desired fps but they got faster as I shot threw the 24 rounds. My primers looked good at first too but not so good as the speed/pressure increased. I’ve cleaned the heck out of this rough barrel but without getting to drastic I guess I’m just going to have to live with it. I’m going to look for some other bullets and see if I can find something without a copper jacket.
I have a second deluxe Lee Navy sporter but when I used my bore scope this barrel is even rougher.
Off to the Post Office I go.
November 7, 2015
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Sounds like progress, Chuck! Copper fouling is a bummer. I like your choice of powder but I’ve been reading about these new powders that reduce copper fouling. I don’t think they’ll be much help with a rough bore but that could be an exciting development for some or the old rifles we like to shoot. How do you feel about paper patched lead? I don’t have the patience for it but casters I know have had good success in rough bores at jacketed bullet velocities with it in other calibers. Other folks are going the powder coat lead route but that can be an undertaking and I have no experience with that, either. I hate scrubbing bores, I’m having to get away from 5744, one of my most useful powders, because I just don’t want to spend the time cleaning the powder fouling.
Mike
Mike, I have no experience with paper patched bullets. The oiginal bullets were full patch and look more like tin.
Chuck said
Mike, I have no experience with paper patched bullets. The oiginal bullets were full patch and look more like tin.
The original bullets were Cupronickel plated. Winchester used cupronickel bullets for many of their various smokeless powder cartridges and was still using them as late as the early 1930s. I have original 405 WCF, 30-03 GOV’T and 30-06 GOV’T cartridge boxes with cupronickel plated bullets.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, did Winchester use the cupronickel for jacketed soft point bullets? I ask as I found an old box of 45-90 300 grain sp with a silver colored jacket.
oldcrankyyankee said
Bert, did Winchester use the cupronickel for jacketed soft point bullets? I ask as I found an old box of 45-90 300 grain sp with a silver colored jacket.
Yes they did. The 300-gr 405 WCF bullets are the same as your 45-90 WCF, and the WRACo 30-03 GOV’T cartridges are the same.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
Bert, did Winchester use the cupronickel for jacketed soft point bullets? I ask as I found an old box of 45-90 300 grain sp with a silver colored jacket.
Yes they did. The 300-gr 405 WCF bullets are the same as your 45-90 WCF, and the WRACo 30-03 GOV’T cartridges are the same.
Thank you.
Bert H. said
Chuck said
Mike, I have no experience with paper patched bullets. The oiginal bullets were full patch and look more like tin.
The original bullets were Cupronickel plated. Winchester used cupronickel bullets for many of their various smokeless powder cartridges and was still using them as late as the early 1930s. I have original 405 WCF, 30-03 GOV’T and 30-06 GOV’T cartridge boxes with cupronickel plated bullets.
Bert
Thanks Bert. Now, find me some 6mm cupronickel bullets.
Got a couple of calls from Whidden Gun Works today concerning the dies I sent back to them. First call was to identify my issue and to talk about the cases in general. Second call was to let me know they fixed the problem. They had to polish out the area that sizes the base of the case. They did successfully size 2 of the cases I sent them. No charge, but cookies would be nice is all they said.
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