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March 31, 2009
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I wasn’t really ready to start this project but things finally came together and I was still waiting on the dies for the 45 EX.
I bought this rifle about 3 months ago and it has taken this long for me to obtain the brass I needed for forming. I had to purchase 405 Basic 3-1/4″ brass in Canada. I lettered the rifle after I bought it and was surprised how long it takes now. I guess I’ve been lucky buying guns that already have letters or are Military and can’t letter. The rile does not letter with the Lyman front sight or the Lyman tang sight but I like them better than the standard sights. Everything else letters. The tang sight has the S underneath. Here is a picture.
So this time the 405 Basic is a larger diameter than the 38 EX brass. Makes for much more work. I sacrificed a couple pieces of brass to find out what size holes I had to drill to form the brass. It takes 6 holes, some of them chamfered, and you have to go in a specific order. The most critical part of the process is to not crack the neck. If you do the brass is trash. Almost any wrinkles or bulges can be pressured out when fire forming. 4 of the 6 holes are to gradually swage the neck. Here is a picture of a piece of aluminum and my bench press I use when doing such work. There are 6 holes that are numbered and at each step you have to go so far into the hole.
Here is a picture of a Factory loaded 38 EX, a new untouched 405 Basic case, a piece of brass that has gone through the process and finally a fire formed piece. This time I can use a 38-55 die to neck the case after firing. But I am having issues with the bullet diameter. I slugged the barrel and the groove diameter is .380″ with the lands at .374″. I have bullets at .375″. 380″ and 381″. When I seat a .375″ bullet it makes insertion into the chamber very tight. But after firing it seems that the forming process has thinned the case neck diameter and bullet insertion is much better. Another thing I had to do was reduce the weight of the bullet from 255 grains to 215 grains. So a quick cut solved that.
November 7, 2015
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Cool! I’m hoping the loading dies won’t be as difficult for this project. What are you using for a bullet?
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Cool! I’m hoping the loading dies won’t be as difficult for this project. What are you using for a bullet?
Mike
Mike, I have 3 different bullets to try. I don’t really care much about accuracy. I am hoping to use the .381″. They seem hard and don’t have grease rings. I’m going to use 4198 after fire forming. The .375″ are jacketed soft flat points. Really for modern guns but who knows, they may shoot the best.
November 7, 2015
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Hopefully the .381 bullets will chamber. Is it a cast bullet without lube grooves?
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Hopefully the .381 bullets will chamber. Is it a cast bullet without lube grooves?
Mike
Yes and ugly and cheap.
March 31, 2009
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Here is a picture of the case necks through the process. New untouched, sized then fired.
March 31, 2009
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Like I said, I am not organized with this project.
First off you need to use a good die lube when pressing the cases into the holes. You need to make sure the rotating plate is aligned as needed. Whether you want to hit bottom or flow through.
For the first couple of presses you want to use a bullet to get the squeezing started. The bullet will keep the brass from wrinkling or cracking the neck.
Just remember to rotate the plate back to where you don’t hit the plate. If you don’t you will wrinkle the case. Most wrinkles as bad as they seem will be removed when fire forming.
I formed 5 more cases and will shoot them Tuesday if the rain stops. As you can see I got sloppy and ruined 2 more cases and wrinkled and bent a couple. Believe it or not all 5 of these do chamber. We’ll see what happens. I need to send 5 fire formed pieces to Lee Precision. It will take at least 2 firings each.
March 31, 2009
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Yesterday I loaded 5 rounds. I filled one case with FFg then measured how much it took to fill the case to the top. 90 grains, but I didn’t want to fire form with this much so I picked about 60 grains. That meant I needed a filler. I have these fairly dense tubes of cotton that are used for cleaning behind the receiver lugs on bolt action rifles. I cut a few of these to .75″. These allowed the bullet when seated to compress the load.
Read Post 11. I found out that removing the bottom of the casing may cause the jacket to be removed from the bullet and lodge in the chamber. I picked the smallest diameter bullets I had so they weren’t too hard to get them in the neck. Problem was these are 255 grain bullets and the 38 EX uses a 215 grain bullet. I took a dowel and drilled a hole in one end and inserted a bullet and ground off enough of the bottom to get to 215 grains. Once I had this figured out I just had to push the dowel up against a sander just to the point the wood was about to touch. Picture shows there is still a way to go. The dowel is in a slot on the table so it will be kept perpendicular to the sand paper. The table is plum to the sandpaper.
After getting them to length/weight I chucked them up in my drill press and spun them against a file to chamfer the bottom edge.
I found out the last time when I fire formed my first case that the neck wall thickness got thinner. On the second firing bullet seating should be easier. We’ll see what these do.
November 7, 2015
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Great idea on the bullet fixture, was wondering how you would shorten the bullets while keeping them square and uniform. I’m not surprised the chamber is a bit tight at the case mouth but was hoping that would not be the case.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Mike, the bullets came out OK but during fire forming it really doesn’t matter. The problem is that during the squeezing operation the necks got thicker. So when the bullets are seated the neck gets too fat for the chamber. After fire forming things get better. Take a close look at the thickness of the necks. The one in the middle is before seating the bullet and the one on the right is after firing.
I’m going to do something similar with the bullets I hope to shoot. They have a larger diameter to match the slug I pushed through the barrel. Nobody makes .380″ bullets that are 115 grain. I have some .380’s and .381″ that are 155 grain. The 38-40’s are actually .401″ and are too heavy also.
March 31, 2009
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I was talking with some friends at the shop today about how I cut the bullets so they were the right weight and they said I messed up. In the past they said bullets with a soft point and no casing on the bottom have had case/bullet separation leaving the casing in the chamber. I would have been OK if the bullets were full metal jackets not soft points. So I pulled some cast lead bullets from some loaded 38-55 rounds and will remove and replace the ones I loaded in the 38 EX.
March 31, 2009
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I knocked out the soft point bullets I had loaded and seated lead bullets that have been coated with a high strength polymer.
March 31, 2009
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I took 5 loaded rounds to the range yesterday with high hopes. I shot all 5 but 3 split. I had marked 2 cases that were questionable ahead of time. Both of these split and 1 other one that I believed would come out OK. So now I have a 50% failure rate. I have 3 good cases and 3 split cases. I have 10 new cases left and am working on getting another box of 20 out of Australia through New Zealand to the Vegas show in January.
I spent a lot of time yesterday inspecting the slit cases. Each split is in the same general area. The next time I form more cases I’m not going to squeeze this area as much. I’m also going to reduce the black powder load a bit more.
The 3 cases on the left are split, the 3 in the middle are next to an original round, are fire formed and the 3 on the right are my next ones to form. The black marks are reference marks I use when squeezing. The 5 cases on the left have not been cleaned.
November 7, 2015
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Rather disappointing, Chuck. Won’t get to shoot it much with a failure rate that high.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Rather disappointing, Chuck. Won’t get to shoot it much with a failure rate that high.
Mike
Once the brass is formed I don’t expect to have the cases fail. It’s just the forming process that is my problem. My goal is to get around 10 cases formed. I’d like to have some cases untouched for other projects if they ever come up. I doubt that this rifle will get shot a lot when this project is done just like most of my rifles. That’s why I have those ugly guns as Zeb calls them.
March 31, 2009
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I loaded 3 more rounds. Tried to be more careful when squeezing the brass. I changed the order of the holes I was using trying not to wrinkle the area where the splits are occurring. I also cut the powder charge down from a 75% load to a 50% load. 2 of the 3 cases look good but who knows? When I get 6 cases formed I’m not going to send any to Lee Precision until I see how the 45 EX dies look. I’m hoping to get those this month.
March 31, 2009
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I shot the 3 cases I formed. What a difference. My changes worked well. No failures. The reduced load worked much better. There are some wrinkles that will come out during the next firing. So now I have the 5 Lee Precision wants and 1 left for me to play with.
My next hurdle is how to trim these to length after the fire forming is complete. I have 3 case trimmers but 2 index off the shoulder and require the cases to have been full length sized. With no dies that’s not going to happen. That leaves me with the old RCBS hand crank trimmer. These cases may just fit this tool?? If not I will make a spacer to use the Frankford Arsenal trimmer. The spacer will only the case to go as far as needed into the cutter and would index off the case rim. My last resort would be costly. I have a Giraud 3 way cutter. I would need to buy a custom case holder and a 3 way cutter head. I really don’t want to spend the money. For those that would like a 3 way case trimmer the Henderson may be the way to go for rimmed cases.
November 7, 2015
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Ever used the Lee Zip Trim? It’s very basic, just requires a holder for the base and a collet for the cutter. Nut sure what the max case length may be.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Ever used the Lee Zip Trim? It’s very basic, just requires a holder for the base and a collet for the cutter. Nut sure what the max case length may be.
Mike
Never heard of this one. Can’t find it on their web sight? They do show a deluxe quick trim.
Deluxe Quick Trim Case Trimmer
November 7, 2015
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I haven’t been able to find one on the Midway site. It had a case holder you rotated by pulling a string and the case gauge screwed into the cutter, you simply put the case in the holder, put the gauge in the case and pulled the string. They still list the cutters, shell holders and gauges. I suppose most folks are using cordless drills or other methods of turning the case. Glad I bought an extra!
Lee Case Trimmer Cutter Lock Stud
Mike
