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An interesting video from the IAA website. I did notice that Maverick commented on it, on the IAA site.
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/70-150-shooting/66237
Anthony
Anthony and Maverick plus others, I think it was two years ago at Cody, a gentleman was just to my left with a new manufactured Italian copy of the 1887 in 70-150. Its barrel was a tad short and recoil a bit much, so he went to Mark to see about having a new, longer barrel made. He had custom die sets for sale (seems I recall they were for sale at $200 per set), brass 12 ga empties, land a few made up rounds (too expensive for my taste). If it wasn’t two years ago it was last year. I don’t recall if he had moulds for the bullets. There has to be someone with a better memory of it than I have. Not my cup of tea or shot of Scotch, so didn’t pay too much attention. Anyway, I am of the opinion the rifle and ammo in the cited IAA video are one and the same. I may also add with my limited memory, back in the day of The Gun List, a fellow in Georgia advertised two 1887’s that were reputedly originals in the 70-150 chambering. Don’t recall his asking price but they were rather expensive!! I am thinking this happened prior to my retiring in 1995 so it has been a few years. Were they legit? No idea. Tim
I watched the video with fascination. 230 grains of black powder! I recall first becoming aware of this cartridge and the fact that it was chambered in the M1887 Winchester when I bought my first copy of Cartridges of the World. I always remember Frank Barnes final sentence in his description of the cartridge: “Recoil would be murder.” I was in my teens then and this really got my blood flowing.
I’ve always thought it would be quite the prize to find an original one. Still do.
Over 40 years ago I was in a dealer’s home and he claimed to have one. I just can’t remember if I handled the gun or not – I handled a lot of gun that day. I seem to recall the gun was unmarked as to chambering and the only way it looked different from any other M1887 was there was rifling in the barrel. And, the rifling may not have run the entire length of the barrel.
As far as the one in the video, I enjoy the novelty of it. And probably as a younger man I would have fired it. I would not do that today.
It was an interesting video. I’m not recoil shy. But after watching it, my shoulder, neck, head and teeth hurt afterwards.
I am in agreement with the posts above, as I thought it was interesting, and would never think about shooting that thing today! When I was younger, maybe! After someone else in front of the line shot it first!!!
tim tomlinson said
Anthony and Maverick plus others, I think it was two years ago at Cody, a gentleman was just to my left with a new manufactured Italian copy of the 1887 in 70-150. Its barrel was a tad short and recoil a bit much, so he went to Mark to see about having a new, longer barrel made. He had custom die sets for sale (seems I recall they were for sale at $200 per set), brass 12 ga empties, land a few made up rounds (too expensive for my taste). If it wasn’t two years ago it was last year. I don’t recall if he had moulds for the bullets. There has to be someone with a better memory of it than I have. Not my cup of tea or shot of Scotch, so didn’t pay too much attention. Anyway, I am of the opinion the rifle and ammo in the cited IAA video are one and the same. I may also add with my limited memory, back in the day of The Gun List, a fellow in Georgia advertised two 1887’s that were reputedly originals in the 70-150 chambering. Don’t recall his asking price but they were rather expensive!! I am thinking this happened prior to my retiring in 1995 so it has been a few years. Were they legit? No idea. TimTim, I can certainly agree with you on the fact that you said, “Not you’re cup of tea, or shot of Scotch”, and I happen to like both of them on occasion, but no amount of Chivas, my preference, or even the higher priced stuff! I do find the caliber and cartridge intriguing, like many others!
Mark, I’m glad that you added to the conversation with you’re experience and shared knowledge!
steve004 said
I watched the video with fascination. 230 grains of black powder! I recall first becoming aware of this cartridge and the fact that it was chambered in the M1887 Winchester when I bought my first copy of Cartridges of the World. I always remember Frank Barnes final sentence in his description of the cartridge: “Recoil would be murder.” I was in my teens then and this really got my blood flowing.I’ve always thought it would be quite the prize to find an original one. Still do.
Over 40 years ago I was in a dealer’s home and he claimed to have one. I just can’t remember if I handled the gun or not – I handled a lot of gun that day. I seem to recall the gun was unmarked as to chambering and the only way it looked different from any other M1887 was there was rifling in the barrel. And, the rifling may not have run the entire length of the barrel.
As far as the one in the video, I enjoy the novelty of it. And probably as a younger man I would have fired it. I would not do that today.
Steve, Absolutely fascinating to guy’s like us! Sure wish you had pictures or could even recollect more of that past experience of that rifle you handled. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that one. I also would love to stumble upon, or even see one, but I am in no way interested in shooting one!
Anthony
Hey, Mark! My question now is, what year was this rifle at Cody?! Not important to the discussion, but it may help my ego if I was generally correct on a memory! Tim
I did a bit more research on what’s out there these days as far as .72 caliber guns. I see slugs have come a long way. I was watching a guy shooting 12 gauge slugs that weighed 1092 grains. The recoil looked like it was substantial.
Tony –
Yes, I sure wished I had pursued more information on that M1887!
The .70-150 (i.e. .70-230) looks like it would be quite the hog gun.
November 7, 2015
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Methinks he was a bit too close to that jar full of rotten eggs. Fun fact about recoil; in my younger days I occasionally helped out at a local range sighting in hunting rifles. The heaviest recoiling rifles were fired by a young college kid who weighed maybe 140 pounds. He was also a very good shot! Owner knew that a wiry youngster like him would simply be knocked back by the recoil, bigger guys absorb more of the recoil with their greater mass. “Kid” is a very successful financial advisor in the Houston area last I heard so apparently those thumpers didn’t addle him much.
Mike
Mark Douglas said
tim tomlinson said
Hey, Mark! My question now is, what year was this rifle at Cody?! Not important to the discussion, but it may help my ego if I was generally correct on a memory! Tim
Frank Walker was the gentleman who had those shoulder-fired cannons made. He was set up at the show last year very near your table. When he didn’t sell them at the show, he asked me to consign them at the shop. Mark
So the new owner is shooting stag deer with them over somewhere in Europe? 
Mark Douglas said
That “rifle” came through Wyoming Armory on consignment with another reproduction 1887 shotgun and a much heavier octagon barrel, bullet molds and dies. We installed the octagon barrel on the second frame and fit wood to it.I really enjoy shooting vintage firearms but am not a big fan of heavy recoil. Jeremy at Leverguns50 is about twice my size. After seeing how that rifle set him back, I decided I didn’t really need to shoot either of them. Thankfully, a wealthy collector in Europe just had to have them and they now reside safely on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean.
Was the barrel rifled the entire length of the barrel? Or did it have the correct style Ratchet Rifling?
The bullets shown in the video are not correct per what a period 70-150 cartridge bullet is. Way to heavy and the profile is all wrong. With several to appear to not even be crimped properly.
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This is from an earlier post thread this spring, that I resurrected with some comparison pictures.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/general-discussions-questions/70-150/page-2/
Anthony
Anthony said
This is from an earlier post thread this spring, that I resurrected with some comparison pictures.https://winchestercollector.org/forum/general-discussions-questions/70-150/page-2/
Anthony
Do you know where someone, me, could find a correct bullet?
Chuck said Do you know where someone, me, could find a correct bullet?
I’m sure there are plenty of cartridge dealers and auction houses that would be more than happy to sell you one or have you bid on one.
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The barrels were rifled full length. We didn’t have any of the ammo or projectiles, so I can’t speak to your other questions. As I mentioned, there were dies and molds with it.
So they don’t have the correct rifling, he’s using more powder than the original design and a heavier bullet than originally designed.
I wonder if he used the correct bullet or a bullet with a weight between 650-700 grains and with a powder load of 150-180 grains and with the correct type of rifling. If the recoil would be so bad?
Sincerely,
Maverick
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Maverick said
Chuck said Do you know where someone, me, could find a correct bullet?
I’m sure there are plenty of cartridge dealers and auction houses that would be more than happy to sell you one or have you bid on one.
I wish a real one could be found that easy!
Chuck said I wish a real one could be found that easy!
Me as well, a lot of things are always easier said than done.
Mark Douglas said I haven’t any interest in approving or condemning what was done with the loading and shooting and would just as soon leave it at that. I’m sure Jeremy at Leverguns50 would be happy to share information with you if you’d like to contact him. I can send you his contact information in private or you can send him a message on his channel if you’d like to ask him. Mark
I’m not trying to disapprove or condemn anything he’s done or currently doing but merely pointing out that the rounds and gun aren’t exactly historically accurate. It is a good testament towards John Browning’s design that it can withstand such a powerful loading.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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I read somewhere that the original M1887 had about five inches of rifling?
Were I to have ever pursued a reproduction of one of these rifles, and loaded up rounds for it, I can’t imagine I would have exceeded the original loading of 150 grains of black powder. I don’t think it would have crossed my mind to use more than 150 grains of black powder.
On the reproductions that were made – were the receivers altered in any way (e.g. reinforced)?
Steve,
Once again I’m in agreement with you, as I wouldn’t have attempted it either.
I can’t wait to hear what Mark, or others who might know the answer to this question you pose.
My guess would be, and it’s only a guess, that with today’s higher pressured smokeless powder, that it would be.
Anthony
steve004 said
On the reproductions that were made – were the receivers altered in any way (e.g. reinforced)?
From what I gather all the modern reproductions are more designed like the Model 1901 shotgun. Plus with the reproductions they are made of a much stronger more modern steel. Which is why you can shoot smokeless in them. That said, I do question shooting such a round as the 70-150 with smokeless. But in the videos he states he is using black powder.
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