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I asked in another thread, this is a better area to post.
Has anyone used the Jamison 45-60 loads, 300 grain, 1200 feet per second in an antique 1876? Does anyone have pet loads for smokeless powder in an antique they care to share?
I appreciate the help, Race
Race, I have two smokeless loads I use. #1 30grs. 3031, thin paper wad over powder and corn meal as filler. Fill case to 3/8″ from the top with corn meal, leaving space for bullet, 300gr. cast bullet in a original Winchester mold, but do not size and hand lube, 1100 fps. With the corn meal filler you only use 30grs. The speed on the string only varies 20fps. The cast not sized is accurate even in old bores. Old Winchester molds will be marked 45/60, they sell on EBAY for $100. #2 34grs. 3031, thin paper wad, corn meal filler Remington 300gr FP. HP. jacketed, 1275fps. I use new Remington 45/70 brass trimmed to 1.870″and hand weigh all powder charges on both loads. The second load is my hunting load, I do not use it in a gun that’s beat. I have used load #1 in over a dozen of my 76’s and been pleased with the results. Both bullets have performed well. This is not a recommendation, this is what I do.T/R
Thank you Larry, I am new to this. I wanted to make certain it was not confused with a reproduction which could withstand higher pressures. I am learning my way and appreciate the help.
Race
A nice M1876 is a very hard rifle to find, especially in good condition. Big Larry
Before you shoot any old 76 have a knowledgeable expert look it over. Over the years I have unknowingly bought two 76’s with blown chambers, they could not be shot, bummer. Both were the same problem, the chamber blew down splitting the frame between the barrel thread and the magazine hole in the frame. This is not visible from the outside, you have to remove the forearm and look at the front of the frame. One was a 45-75 and the other a 50-95, these two cal. have large dia. cases making the barrel thin in the threaded area. The 45-60 and 40-60 have thicker steel in the chamber area because of the smaller case dia. If you shoot a gun with a blown chamber you cannot eject the shell, it expands and fills the bulge. I bought a 86 in 45-70 with the same problem, but when inspecting the gun I removed the forearm, saw the crack, and returned the gun. Make sure your gun is safe to shoot. T/R
Very good information. The early M1886’s were made of softer steel and prone to blow up. I have one made in 1890 in 40-65 and I will never shoot it. I would never take chances with a very expensive rifle. Some do though. Big Larry
I have a nice old ’86 in .38-55 made in 1890 as well that I have shot many times. I use 55 grains of FFG and a soft cast lead bullet. I haven’t had any problem with shooting, feeding or extraction. Even though some people load light loads of smokeless powder to assimilate black powder, I never would in this one.
I hunt with my original winchester 1876 rifle(30″ barrel) in 45-60, killing deer with it using 27 grs imr 4198(found no need for a filler) and a 350 gr cast bullet with 45-70 cases trimmed and rim reduced. my rifle is in very good condition with a ex bore and that load was worked up for my rifle only. I only keep five loaded shells a year for it. if I fire two rounds hunting I only load two more to bring it back to five. my original Winchester 1886 in 40-82 does requires a filler with rl 7 for best results and i do the same five loaded round thing with it too after finding what worked best. you don,t need magnum speeds as they kill very well at between 1200-1300 fps.
Online
I have found that IMR 4198 is a great black powder replacement. The general rule of thumb is to start with 40% of the original BP load, and then work up slowly until the desired velocity is reached. Like you, I have never needed to add a filler, as the 4198 tend to burn evenly regardless of its position in the case.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I always use toilet paper as a filler. This will ensure all of the powder stays down near the primer. Big air gaps can sometimes cause a big problem. It is best to use a powder that fills the case as much as possible.
I have a really nice all original 1876 in 45-60, with a 30″ octagon barrel.
I fill by cases to the max with trail boss and 300 gr lead bullets.
They shot Ok, but very weak. It Cycled well and was ok accurate.
I moved up to a small load of Unigue powder, which shot great, but I had a hard time ejecting cases.
When firing the more powerful loads the cases bulged like a balloon.
I had not checked the chamber for size.
I did not know that the chamber of my old gun has which is eaten out over 140 years by black powder corrosion.
The more powerful powder swelled the cases to the size of the chamber.
I am told this is very common with old black powder guns.
The original owners swobbed and cleaned the bore but not the chamber.
Now I am wondering if this old barrel can be rechambered??
Anybody have this experience or knowledge?
Dan, When the chamber on a 76 blows it cracks the receiver between the barrel threads and the hole for the magazine tube. The crack is visible when you remove the forearm and the magazine tube. If that happens the bulge in the case is on the bottom of the chamber. The barrel is impossible to unscrew from the receiver. Be careful with your “really nice all original 1876”. T/R
TR said
Before you shoot any old 76 have a knowledgeable expert look it over. Over the years I have unknowingly bought two 76’s with blown chambers, they could not be shot, bummer. Both were the same problem, the chamber blew down splitting the frame between the barrel thread and the magazine hole in the frame. This is not visible from the outside, you have to remove the forearm and look at the front of the frame. One was a 45-75 and the other a 50-95, these two cal. have large dia. cases making the barrel thin in the threaded area. The 45-60 and 40-60 have thicker steel in the chamber area because of the smaller case dia. If you shoot a gun with a blown chamber you cannot eject the shell, it expands and fills the bulge. I bought a 86 in 45-70 with the same problem, but when inspecting the gun I removed the forearm, saw the crack, and returned the gun. Make sure your gun is safe to shoot. T/R
[email protected] said
I have a really nice all original 1876 in 45-60, with a 30″ octagon barrel.
I fill by cases to the max with trail boss and 300 gr lead bullets.
They shot Ok, but very weak. It Cycled well and was ok accurate.
I moved up to a small load of Unigue powder, which shot great, but I had a hard time ejecting cases.
When firing the more powerful loads the cases bulged like a balloon.
I had not checked the chamber for size.
I did not know that the chamber of my old gun has which is eaten out over 140 years by black powder corrosion.
The more powerful powder swelled the cases to the size of the chamber.
I am told this is very common with old black powder guns.
The original owners swobbed and cleaned the bore but not the chamber.
Now I am wondering if this old barrel can be rechambered??
Anybody have this experience or knowledge?
If your cases are bulging and they are hard to eject it is a clear sign of over pressure. You are going to blow this gun apart if you don’t learn to use a proper load. You should not rechamber the barrel. Best way is to use a black powder substitute or 55 gr. of Goex FFG or 57 gr. of Goex Cartridge. If you have not slugged the barrel, do so. What ever diameter it slugs out to use a bullet 0.001″ larger so it will grip the rifling. If you don’t know how to do this take it to a gunsmith and let him do it. It takes less than 5 minutes. If you insist on using smokeless powder use IMR 4198. Start at 22 gr. and check your cases. No over expansion, no hard to eject and no primers getting flattened or backing out. Get a good loading manual that shows how to load this cartridge. Your face and fingers will be better off.
Let’s see what we/i can do.
45-60 with 300grain bullet (i will use Lyman 457122) in a 26″ barrel and BP pressures ie under 16kpsi and aim for 1200fps
COL = 2.5″ and as close to 100% burn as i can.
Accurate #5 = 12grains for 1235fps and 14.4kpsi
Accurate #7 = 15grains for 1250fps and 12kpsi
Alliant POWER PISTOL = 11grains for 1205fps and 12.2kpsi
Alliant BLUE DOT = 15grains for 1270fps and 12.8kpsi
Hodgdon HS-6 = 13grains for 1240fps and 15.5kpsi
Winchester 540 = 12grains for 1190fps and 14.8kpsi
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