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This almost breaks my heart. This rifle was originally a standard round barrel rifle sold on Gnbroker.com out of Uchland, PA. Now it shows up as an OB .22 Short Only variation on Guns International. I had been contacted by the owner a couple months ago about some of his Model 61’s and is a nice guy for sure. I sent him a message via GI and asked if he bought the original rifle. No. He bought the present configuration from C. H. Key out of Kansas City!!!!!! Bells, whistles and sirens started going off for me. I called Bernie and told him the bad news that the gun was a fake. Expletives followed. I am not sure what he is going to do regarding the sale. He obviously is out a good size chunk of change. I did tell him that I would be listing the rifle as a fake on these forums. He said he understood and that I should do what I needed to do. You could hear the the anger in his voice at being taken. He thought that dealing with Key would be an honest way to original guns.
If you have bought a gun from Key in the past several years and it is a “special gun” chances are it is not original. I have caught the guy who was selling his rifle in GB presenting several fake rifles in the past and would be willing to bet most of the others that I maybe had no proof were fakes are certainly HIGHLY questionable.
So here it is. SN 1331 is NOT an original .22 OB Short Only rifle.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
Ouch! Pretty sure I don’t want to know what your friend paid for this fake. On top of that all similar items will take a hit.
Mike
larryb said
tell why can’t charges be brought against the person who made the fake?
I am no lawyer by any measure. Somebody else will need to answer that question. The burden of proof would need to be air tight.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Isn’t there a theme here on the Forum, again and again? Might be a good idea to avoid Model 61’s. Too much fakery and deception.
mrcvs said
Isn’t there a theme here on the Forum, again and again? Might be a good idea to avoid Model 61’s. Too much fakery and deception.
My thoughts exactly. That’s why I’m not a model 70 collector either. Don’t collect in “original box” guns for the same reasons. Very unfortunate for the legitimate guns out there, even more-so for those who love these models and collect them. A few (or a lot) of bad apples tend to spoil the whole bunch.
WAIT!!!! What am I going to do with these then????
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
I’m sorry, Michael. You’ll need to ship them to a disposal site. I’ll send you my….I mean the disposal site…address. 😉
I’m a little concerned myself, have a minty 61 I’d be willing to re-home but it’s a lowly S-L-LR.
Mike
twobit said
WAIT!!!! What am I going to do with these then????
Michael
oh-oh
Mike;
Is there anyway you could ask the present owner of the OB gun discussed a question? I would like to have him/her look for a small w on the lower tang – NO – not the W under the S/N.
Several years ago I too purchased one of C.H. Key’s “special guns” S/N 84234 (1947) a round barrel – 22 short only. I do not know if you would call this gun a fake or a parts gun. The lettering on the barrel is right except it is stamped very deep. NO markings on the underside of the barrel except the index line. (Strange). I have not found anything that would indicate it was ever anything different.
Over the years I have bought small parts from Key and was completely satisfied. Saw no reason to mistrust him.
The last I heard he was in an assised living home and his daughter was trying to close out his business.
I talked to him at Tulsa last year (he shared a table with Dave Riffle) and also heard he is in an assisted living home. I have bought more than a dozen Model 61 barrels from him over the last few years via Ebay (all round, S, L, & LR) and always wondered where he got so many nice barrels. That doesn’t prove anything or necessarily mean anything, I just thought it was odd. All of my face to face dealings with him have been pleasant and he always seemed to be a gentleman. I truly hope he is not involved in any way in the skullduggery.
Michael, Thanks again for keeping us informed on these. Without your diligence there would probably be a lot more people taken.
Best Regards,
Jeff
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
I talked to him at Tulsa last year (he shared a table with Dave Riffle) and also heard he is an assisted living home. I have bought more than a dozen Model 61 barrels from him over the last few years via Ebay (all round, S, L, & LR) and always wondered where he got so many nice barrels. That doesn’t prove anything or necessarily mean anything, I just thought it was odd. All of my face to face dealings with him have been pleasant and he always seemed to be a gentleman. I truly hope he is not involved in any way in the skullduggery.Michael, Thanks again for keeping us informed on these. Without your diligence there would probably be a lot more people taken.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Sadly Jeff my feeling is that are too many “smoking guns” pointing at Charles to not believe that he was involved. I just don’t think it is just a fluke that I can tie him to so many fake guns.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
The last time I saw him he was very frail and not in good health wheras the quality of work on the fakes is top notch. Possibly there is an accomplice who is doing the work?
This whole thing saddens me greatly and certainly dampens my collecting enthusiasm somewhat.
I would like to hope it is not happening in the lower-priced .22 models that I primarily collect but realize it is only a matter of time before it affects us all.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
The last time I saw him he was very frail and not in good health wheras the quality of work on the fakes is top notch. Possibly there is an accomplice who is doing the work?This whole thing saddens me greatly and certainly dampens my collecting enthusiasm somewhat.
I would like to hope it is not happening in the lower-priced .22 models that I primarily collect but realize it is only a matter of time before it affects us all.
Best Regards,
There is not enough “margin” in the $500 or so guns. These guys can pick up a pretty nice standard 61 for less than a $1000 and put a barrel on it that probably cost them $300 or so and turn the gun into a $3000 fake. That is the economics of it.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Win61 said
Mike;Is there anyway you could ask the present owner of the OB gun discussed a question? I would like to have him/her look for a small w on the lower tang – NO – not the W under the S/N.
Several years ago I too purchased one of C.H. Key’s “special guns” S/N 84234 (1947) a round barrel – 22 short only. I do not know if you would call this gun a fake or a parts gun. The lettering on the barrel is right except it is stamped very deep. NO markings on the underside of the barrel except the index line. (Strange). I have not found anything that would indicate it was ever anything different.
Over the years I have bought small parts from Key and was completely satisfied. Saw no reason to mistrust him.
The last I heard he was in an assised living home and his daughter was trying to close out his business.
What does the small w on the lower tang represent?
Thanks,
Al
tionesta1 said
What does the small w on the lower tang represent?
Thanks,
Al
Good question Al that I had not gotten back to asking. But we may want the answer in PM.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
mrcvs said
Isn’t there a theme here on the Forum, again and again? Might be a good idea to avoid Model 61’s. Too much fakery and deception.
Well I don’t know that the fakers stay with just the 61. With line of thought, you might as well avoid all the Models!
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
Well I don’t know that the fakers stay with just the 61. With line of thought, you might as well avoid all the Models!
Sincerely,
Maverick
Understood. Except for this model seems to be faked to a greater extent, percentage wise, than other models, and these cannot be lettered to verify configuration.
November 7, 2015
Offline
mrcvs said
Understood. Except for this model seems to be faked to a greater extent, percentage wise, than other models, and these cannot be lettered to verify configuration.
I hate to be the Devil’s advocate here but we could very well be missing fakes of other models and there are likely 61’s for which no prior sales data is available. I think we’re seeing the fake 61’s because we have knowledgeable collectors looking for them and good data to help verify past configurations. With the apparent high quality of these fakes it’s hard to imagine that we’ll catch them all. Other models are certainly possible, it would require the same level of vigilance to catch them and I don’t know if anyone’s looking.
Mike
TXGunNut said
mrcvs said
Understood. Except for this model seems to be faked to a greater extent, percentage wise, than other models, and these cannot be lettered to verify configuration.
I hate to be the Devil’s advocate here but we could very well be missing fakes of other models and there are likely 61’s for which no prior sales data is available. I think we’re seeing the fake 61’s because we have knowledgeable collectors looking for them and good data to help verify past configurations. With the apparent high quality of these fakes it’s hard to imagine that we’ll catch them all. Other models are certainly possible, it would require the same level of vigilance to catch them and I don’t know if anyone’s looking.
Mike
There are indeed several other Models that have a sizable number of intentionally faked specimens out there in market… e.g. the Models 43, 55, 64, 65, 70, and 71 just to name a few. For all but the Model 70, I have documented dozens of intentionally altered/faked rifles.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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