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I have a Winchester.22 WRF that is all original and in 95% condition It is also factory drilled and tapped for a target scope (the WP in an oval proof is moved forward on the top of the barrel so you can still see the proof mark if the rear target block was on the gun) The gun also has factory open sights. The gun was given to me by my grandfather and I have no intentions of selling it. I know that this is a rare variation of the Model 67 being chambered for .22 WRF and being factory drilled and tapped. I am trying to find out how many were made in this configuration and a value for the rifle.
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I’ve never seen any numbers on dual sight model 67″s or on the 67 WRF. It is a hard to find rifle in the dual sight. You will need to know if it was 2.75 or 5 power scoped if you want to try to find parts to put it back to original. Value who knows without the scope and mounts it’s a lot less. Pictures would help as condition is everything.
Have a great day
Jay
cranky2 said
You will need to know if it was 2.75 or 5 power scoped if you want to try to find parts to put it back to original.
But it would be impossible to know that without factory records…which don’t exist. The 5X models show up fairly often on ebay, but finding one in 95% cond. to match the rifle won’t be easy, as those painted brass tubes are so easily scratched.
Vincent Rausch quotes total sales of 387 factory-scoped Model 67s in his article on factory-scoped .22s in the Summer 2014 Winchester Collector magazine but he does not break it down between the S/L/LR version and the .22WRF. He further mentions having personally seen only two .22WRFs that he believed were originally factory-scoped. Neither still had the mounts and scopes with them.
clarence said
But it would be impossible to know that without factory records…which don’t exist. The 5X models show up fairly often on ebay, but finding one in 95% cond. to match the rifle won’t be easy, as those painted brass tubes are so easily scratched.
The distance between the bases is less for rifles D/Ted for the 2-3/4X scopes versus the 5X scopes. That difference shows up pretty well in the magazine article pictures.
3Dub said
The distance between the bases is less for rifles D/Ted for the 2-3/4X scopes versus the 5X scopes. That difference shows up pretty well in the magazine article pictures.
Frankly, I don’t understand that–there’s no relationship between power & base spacing. High power target scopes generally use the same spacings as low power ones. I don’t know what the recommended base spacing was for this line of scopes, but when the 5A was in production the two elevation charts published were for 7.2″ & 6″ spacings, with 7.2 being considered standard.
I have an original promotional brochure for these scopes, showing several photos of rifles with scopes mounted; the spacing on all of them (which looks like 7.2″) is the same.
Of course, there’s no law that forces one to use any specific spacing, so two guns with different base spacings shows only that the installers had different ideas about where to position the mounts.
I will be first to admit, I am no expert on the 67’s, but I do have the factory blueprints, and there is a different spacing for the 2-3/4 & 5X scopes. In fact, they are 2 completely different blueprints.
Steve
seewin said
I will be first to admit, I am no expert on the 67’s, but I do have the factory blueprints, and there is a different spacing for the 2-3/4 & 5X scopes. In fact, they are 2 completely different blueprints.Steve
Well, unlikely as it had seemed to me, those prints proves it was done that way, but what could possibly be the theory or logic behind it? No other scope maker I’ve ever heard of (though of course these scopes weren’t built by WRA) recommended different mount spacing for different powers; it’s bizarre.
On page 153 Herbert Houze in his book To The Dreams of Youth states that only 1400 model 677 were made making it the rarest of all regular production Winchester single shot 22 caliber rifles. More duel sight model 67 show up for sale than 677 leading me to believe more were made. The 2.75x scope is about 1.75 inches shorter that the 5x which may be the reason for the different spacing. The proof marks also differ on model 67’s some are in front of the rear base some off set to the side. All duel sighted model 67’s use the #5 front and rear base.
Jeff aka JWA found a pertinent note from Edwin Pugsly in the Winchester files at Cody Carolyn Scopes Commenced to come in Aug. 1937 some used on model 67 and model 69 Later the scopes were purchased from Saymon Brown of New York.
The article I have by Vincent L. Rausch a reprint from the American Society of Arms Collectors Bulletin 93:71-81 also states 1400 model 677.
Have a great day
Jay
Spacing of the mounting block has nothing to do with the power of the scope, these were external adjusting scopes and the spacing had to do with how much the scope moved with each “click” . Today’s scopes are internal adjusting so there are just rings. On the external adjusting scopes the whole scope moves rather than the crosshairs. Here’s the chart:
5.4″ = 1/3″ Per Click.
7.2″ = 1/4″ Per Click.
9.0″ = 1/5″ Per Click.
10.8″ = 1/6″ Per Click.
12.6″ = 1/7″ Per Click.
14.4″ = 1/8″ Per Click.
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
Vince you lost me please explain what you are saying please. I’m not follow your line of thinking.
Thanks
Jay
Vince said
Spacing of the mounting block has nothing to do with the power of the scope, these were external adjusting scopes and the spacing had to do with how much the scope moved with each “click” . Today’s scopes are internal adjusting so there are just rings. On the external adjusting scopes the whole scope moves rather than the crosshairs. Here’s the chart:5.4″ = 1/3″ Per Click.
7.2″ = 1/4″ Per Click.
9.0″ = 1/5″ Per Click.
10.8″ = 1/6″ Per Click.
12.6″ = 1/7″ Per Click.
14.4″ = 1/8″ Per Click.
To go a step further, the manufacturers of the mounts can build any amount of movement into the “clicks” as they desire. It is just a matter of changing the thread pitch of the adjuster screws in combination with the radial spacing of the spring detents. I believe Litschert was one manufacturer that sold the same mounts with either 1/4 or 1/2 moa adjustments when mounts were spaced at a 7.2″ location.
Steve
Vince
After reading Steve’s post I think I understand what you were saying. Winchester used the same mounts on both scopes which is the reason for the different hole spacing.
Have a great day
Jay
cranky2 said
Jeff aka JWA found a pertinent note from Edwin Pugsly in the Winchester files at Cody Carolyn Scopes Commenced to come in Aug. 1937 some used on model 67 and model 69 Later the scopes were purchased from Saymon Brown of New York.
Campbell’s 2nd vol. on the SS reported this same info, but Campbell failed to recognize that “Carolyn,” rather than a personal name as he suspected, was actually the name of a company manufacturing scopes under their own name in the ’30s; they received good reviews in Rifleman.
I have a model 67 with tap screws for scope mount. Doubt you can find an original mount and scope though. The rifle is 85 years old and mounts/scopes don’t even last that long today. Mine looks to have never mounted a scope. The rear sight is fragile but functional. Front sight is perfect. Stamp is top dead center above chamber. Chrome bolt and trigger guard. It was sold at gun store and picked up by dealer that sold it to me. This rifle looks and shoots like new. Just like the one I and 5 brothers grew up with. Beautiful condition. Good rifling. Recent NRA Rifleman puts it at about $2000. The take down bolt for this rifle is recessed. That helps date and identify.
Wyatt said
I have a model 67 with tap screws for scope mount. Doubt you can find an original mount and scope though. The rifle is 85 years old and mounts/scopes don’t even last that long today.
The Winchester scopes made for this model (assuming it’s a legit 677) show up on ebay from time to time, but it’s the special bases they require that are very difficult to find. Mounts & scopes can last a WHOLE lot longer than 85 yrs.; I have a few that are 100+ & still quite functional.
Have been trying to add a photo of 2 1/2 X scope on a 67 Dual sight as a visual aid. The photo uploads but doesn’t appear on the post ????? Any thoughts? RDB
Rodger,
What is the file size? If it is too big, it will not upload.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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