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That’s all and here I add some info:
When I first put my hands on it, I felt the barrel a little loose even with a tight takedown screw.
Someone in the past noticed this too and tried to fix it with a small piece of metal covered by that piece of newspaper under the barrel.
But I finally fixed this obnoxious movement with the less intrusive way, placing those small pieces of toothpicks between the barrel and the spring pillar.
The piece of paper under the extractor absorbed some oil excess in the past, I presume.
Thank you all and let’s talk about this “thing”.
Here’s a pic of the $4000 TT. Nicest one I have ever seen, if not redone. Big Larry
Cristiano Grimaldi said
Thank you all and let’s talk about this “thing”.
It’s too bizarre for words! Is the bore rifled?
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.
I highly recommend casting the chamber to determine what it is actually chambered for.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.
If the brl. is a smoothbore, I was thinking it might be intended for a low-powered shot cartridge. Even .32-20 seems a bit much for the simple breech lock-up; though maybe it’s stronger than it looks. But putting in the work of re-boring & changing the bolt from RF to CF…firearms must have been scarce in Brazil if it was worth that kind of effort!
clarence said
Cristiano Grimaldi said
Thank you all and let’s talk about this “thing”.
It’s too bizarre for words! Is the bore rifled?
Yep, rifled.
A little worn out, but rifled.
Bert H. said
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.I highly recommend casting the chamber to determine what it is actually chambered for.
Bert
Bert, thank you for joining this discussion.
I have no much expertise but the barrel do not appears to be a rechambered one.
Everything is so precise and smooth, passing the impression of a factory default job or a really professional one and very well done.
Brazil was more flexible about firearms in the first decades of the last century than today with a local industry and small manufacturers.
Importing this firearm would be surely way more expensive than opting to buy a Brazilian similar, and rechambering it would be even more expensive.
It would be way cheaper and more convenient to buy a local firearm with similar specifications.
And – if it was indeed a rechambered barrel – I think that no one here in Brazil could had the expertise and proper tools to made such a fine job a century ago.
The only justifiable reason to someone going through all this hypothetical struggle would be that this original owner really needed a thumb trigger with something more powerful than a .22.
clarence said
Bert H. said
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.
If the brl. is a smoothbore, I was thinking it might be intended for a low-powered shot cartridge. Even .32-20 seems a bit much for the simple breech lock-up; though maybe it’s stronger than it looks. But putting in the work of re-boring & changing the bolt from RF to CF…firearms must have been scarce in Brazil if it was worth that kind of effort!
The barrel is rifled.
Brazil still have its own firearm production albeit the restrictions to acquire them.
Even in the beginning of the last century we already had a local firearm industry, so all this struggle is really not justifiable.
As I have said, the only justifiable reason to someone going through all this hypothetical struggle would be that this original owner really needed a thumb trigger with something more powerful than a .22.
And the barrel, the bolt and the extractor pin, it all pass the impression of an original factory production.
And why the barrel have no markings?
It is smooth and even, have its patina, did not looks like a sanding victim.
Big Larry said
Here’s a pic of the $4000 TT. Nicest one I have ever seen, if not redone. Big Larry
Stunning!
Mine is far from this condition.
When this one was sold?
Never spotted a single picture of a thumb trigger original box.
grimaldi said And why the barrel have no markings?
One of the strangest things about it. Is it possible some Brazilian firearms company was making a copy of the TT? Many popular US designs were copied in foreign countries, such as the El Tigre Model ’92 copy. (Wish I’d bought a dozen when they were being imported at give-away prices in the ’60s.) A Brazilian-made copy seems less far-fetched than the idea of reboring & re-rifling a .22 RF to .30 cal.
grimaldi said
Bert H. said
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.
I highly recommend casting the chamber to determine what it is actually chambered for.
Bert
Bert, thank you for joining this discussion.
I have no much expertise but the barrel do not appears to be a rechambered one.
Everything is so precise and smooth, passing the impression of a factory default job or a really professional one and very well done.
Brazil was more flexible about firearms in the first decades of the last century than today with a local industry and small manufacturers.
Importing this firearm would be surely way more expensive than opting to buy a Brazilian similar, and rechambering it would be even more expensive.
It would be way cheaper and more convenient to buy a local firearm with similar specifications.
And – if it was indeed a rechambered barrel – I think that no one here in Brazil could had the expertise and proper tools to made such a fine job a century ago.
The only justifiable reason to someone going through all this hypothetical struggle would be that this original owner really needed a thumb trigger with something more powerful than a .22.
I still highly recommend getting a chamber cast to determine what specific cartridge it is chambered for.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
grimaldi said And why the barrel have no markings?
One of the strangest things about it. Is it possible some Brazilian firearms company was making a copy of the TT? Many popular US designs were copied in foreign countries, such as the El Tigre Model ’92 copy. (Wish I’d bought a dozen when they were being imported at give-away prices in the ’60s.) A Brazilian-made copy seems less far-fetched than the idea of reboring & re-rifling a .22 RF to .30 cal.
If that could be true, I think that here in Brazil more of them could have surfaced over the years, but none were found except this.
And any firearm manufactured here in Brazil at that time does not have this precision and this kind of finish.
And why would they make such a perfect copy, so detailed that it even has the “flower” screws on the back plate, for example?
Well I don’t know.
Bert H. said
grimaldi said
Bert H. said
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.
I highly recommend casting the chamber to determine what it is actually chambered for.
Bert
Bert, thank you for joining this discussion.
I have no much expertise but the barrel do not appears to be a rechambered one.
Everything is so precise and smooth, passing the impression of a factory default job or a really professional one and very well done.
Brazil was more flexible about firearms in the first decades of the last century than today with a local industry and small manufacturers.
Importing this firearm would be surely way more expensive than opting to buy a Brazilian similar, and rechambering it would be even more expensive.
It would be way cheaper and more convenient to buy a local firearm with similar specifications.
And – if it was indeed a rechambered barrel – I think that no one here in Brazil could had the expertise and proper tools to made such a fine job a century ago.
The only justifiable reason to someone going through all this hypothetical struggle would be that this original owner really needed a thumb trigger with something more powerful than a .22.
I still highly recommend getting a chamber cast to determine what specific cartridge it is chambered for.
Bert
Bert, is there a way for me to do this myself?
grimaldi said
Bert H. said
grimaldi said
Bert H. said
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.
I highly recommend casting the chamber to determine what it is actually chambered for.
Bert
Bert, thank you for joining this discussion.
I have no much expertise but the barrel do not appears to be a rechambered one.
Everything is so precise and smooth, passing the impression of a factory default job or a really professional one and very well done.
Brazil was more flexible about firearms in the first decades of the last century than today with a local industry and small manufacturers.
Importing this firearm would be surely way more expensive than opting to buy a Brazilian similar, and rechambering it would be even more expensive.
It would be way cheaper and more convenient to buy a local firearm with similar specifications.
And – if it was indeed a rechambered barrel – I think that no one here in Brazil could had the expertise and proper tools to made such a fine job a century ago.
The only justifiable reason to someone going through all this hypothetical struggle would be that this original owner really needed a thumb trigger with something more powerful than a .22.
I still highly recommend getting a chamber cast to determine what specific cartridge it is chambered for.
Bert
Bert, is there a way for me to do this myself?
Yes… but you will need to purchase the chamber casting kit – chamber casting kit – Search (bing.com)
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
grimaldi said
Bert H. said
grimaldi said
Bert H. said
It cannot be chambered for the 32 W.S. cartridge… it is way too long of a cartridge for the action. My guess is that it has been rechambered for the 32 WCF (32-20) cartridge or one of the other short (pistol length) 32 caliber cartridges… e.g. 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 32 ACP, etc.
I highly recommend casting the chamber to determine what it is actually chambered for.
Bert
Bert, thank you for joining this discussion.
I have no much expertise but the barrel do not appears to be a rechambered one.
Everything is so precise and smooth, passing the impression of a factory default job or a really professional one and very well done.
Brazil was more flexible about firearms in the first decades of the last century than today with a local industry and small manufacturers.
Importing this firearm would be surely way more expensive than opting to buy a Brazilian similar, and rechambering it would be even more expensive.
It would be way cheaper and more convenient to buy a local firearm with similar specifications.
And – if it was indeed a rechambered barrel – I think that no one here in Brazil could had the expertise and proper tools to made such a fine job a century ago.
The only justifiable reason to someone going through all this hypothetical struggle would be that this original owner really needed a thumb trigger with something more powerful than a .22.
I still highly recommend getting a chamber cast to determine what specific cartridge it is chambered for.
Bert
Bert, is there a way for me to do this myself?
Yes… but you will need to purchase the chamber casting kit – chamber casting kit – Search (bing.com)
Bert, thank you!
I researched here and found some tutorial videos on Youtube that will be watched by me.
I will have to import the materials to make such job.
But for while, with my measurements we have only two possibilities: The more probable 0.30 WCF and the 0.32 WS.
There are other Winchester types of cartridges around caliber 0.30 and with a case diameter larger than the bullet diameter?
I found this link while researching on older posts:
http://www.merzantiques.com/product/w2721-winchester-experimental-22-cal-pistol/
This is an experimental pistol with no barrel markings and a single digit number under the breech, just like this thumb trigger.
Could this be a pattern to experimental Winchester firearms?
grimaldi said I will have to import the materials to make such job.
Before you incur that expense, it might be worth your while to try doing it with melted sulfur. Not as convenient to use as Cerosafe, but was often used in “olden times.”
grimaldi said
I found this link while researching on older posts:http://www.merzantiques.com/product/w2721-winchester-experimental-22-cal-pistol/
This is an experimental pistol with no barrel markings and a single digit number under the breech, just like this thumb trigger.
Could this be a pattern to experimental Winchester firearms?
Highly unlikely. Winchester would have marked the barrel with a caliber marking of some type.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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