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Good morning,
With the rash of faked Model 61’s that I have found and posted about one does really need to ask yourself about these examples. All from one dealer. Who does not give out the SN so nothing can be looked into more deeply. And then, just so happens to have a “AS IS – No refund or exchange” policy. To me that is all bells and whistles going off.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/789929738
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/789930741
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/789917620
Be real careful out there.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
This email has been sent:
Good morning Rick,
I have been conducting a research survey of the Model 61 rifles for the past +5 years and in that time I have cataloged more than 5500 individual rifles. My initial emphasis was to more accurately define the transition point of some of the major changes made to this rifle during its production run. Over time I have been asked to expand the effort a bit to help with other points of interest from collectors. In this effort I spend a couple hours every day scouring on line sales and auction listings. I keep track of multiple configuration details, the serial number obviously, and where each gun has been listed even if it is found in multiple sales over the years. This is not uncommon at all.As my data base has grown it has been become very important at identifying fake and altered guns that are being sold. Numerous standard configuration rifles are being resold as single chamber more “desirable” guns. The knowledge of this action is causing numerous serious collectors to bail on the 61 market and not be willing to buy any of these examples. It is obvious the affect this has on the potential value and desirability of these rifles. As times has passed it is becoming a bit clearer who some of the players are in this activity.Is it possible to get the full serial number of the three rifles which you currently have listed on GB so that they can be entered into the data? This will be a substantial help to the collecting community. Hopefully these three fine rifle will not be found to be altered and bolster there status. If by chance they have been faked then I would assume that you would want to seriously distance yourself from the consignor so that your reputation is not harmed.Thanks for your assistance in the important matter. I await your replyThanksMichael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
One other flag is the admonishment to not use the GB “ask a question” link and email the seller directly. That removes any overview by GB if there is any dispute.
jban said
One other flag is the admonishment to not use the GB “ask a question” link and email the seller directly. That removes any overview by GB if there is any dispute.
I thought that was a bit weird because in the past he has replied, negatively, to my request for SN’s and I had used the “Ask A Question” tab.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
Rick hinted there were more guns in the collection, would be nice to survey any additional 61’s as well. Good looking 61’s!
Mike
TXGunNut said
Rick hinted there were more guns in the collection, would be nice to survey any additional 61’s as well. Good looking 61’s!
Mike
If I were only convinced that they were original.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Hello everyone,
This same dealer sold these three 61s a couple weeks and got premium price for them in my opinion and I wondered if they were real. Now he has three more. The smooth bore had a box with it and it had the proper Atlantic logo on the bottom of the box. It also had a label as to who bought the gun originally. It sure looked authentic but with all the fakery going on I don’t know what to think. I need a octagon short and octagon WRF to complete my 61 collection.
Gerald
Guys, None of these guns have factory original finish. All have been messed with. Buyer beware.
Absolutely be concerned!
As stated above, he had several up for auction in August.
It amazes me that with all the guns he has listed now , and previously,
the only ones you cant have a 3 day inspection are the Winchester 22s from this “collection”
Hmmm…
My advice to any buyers would be absolutely do not bid on any rifle for which the seller will not release the full serial number to you. Now days, and in light of my work, the ONLY reason to not give out the SN is to hide something. In addition, do not buy anything that does not have an inspection time period associated with it.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael,
It’s been said before, I know…..thank you for your efforts along these lines. You are providing a great service to the collecting community. The same goes for other members of this forum who are engaged in similar survey work.
Thank you all,
Tom
tsbccut said
Michael,It’s been said before I know…..thank you for your efforts along these lines. You are providing a great service to the collecting community. The same goes for other members of this forum who are engaged in similar survey work.
Thank you all,
Tom
Thanks for your kind words Tom. The survey has been fun to work on and it has obviously created the additional benefit of being able to identify some of the fake rifles on the market. The rub is trying to identify “the who” behind it all and be aware of them.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Thanks for your kind words Tom. The survey has been fun to work on and it has obviously created the additional benefit of being able to identify some of the fake rifles on the market. The rub is trying to identify “the who” behind it all and be aware of them.
Michael
Mike, when you started your survey did you ever think that a side benefit of it would be tracking down fake rifles.
twobit said
Good morning,
With the rash of faked Model 61’s that I have found and posted about one does really need to ask yourself about these examples. All from one dealer. Who does not give out the SN so nothing can be looked into more deeply. And then, just so happens to have a “AS IS – No refund or exchange” policy. To me that is all bells and whistles going off.https://www.gunbroker.com/item/789929738
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/789930741
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/789917620
Be real careful out there.
Michael
I wonder where all of these pre-1936 octagon barrels being put on post-1935 receivers (gun number 2) are coming from.
In 1936 Winchester started putting the patent number on 61 octagon barrels, dropping the patent pending marking
A couple months ago this same seller sold several 61s with pre-1936 barrels on 1940s receivers (per S/N).
This seller say’s that he is selling for a very large estate. Wonder who’s estate?
Welcome to the world of collecting. RR
This is the response to the email I sent to the seller:
Michael, Due to the agreement I signed from the attorney / executor of this estate I am legally unable to disclose the full serial number of these guns. That in itself is not unusual for firearms being sold from estates. I have been required to sign these agreements before. I have however sold quite a few of these to knowledgeable collectors. If you check my feedback you will see they are quite happy. Best of luck in your endeavor.
Rick
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
I’m no expert on the matter, but I have handled a few estates and I don’t recall ever being asked to hold a SN.
I call BS , the only reason they are withheld as to not be researched further, i.e getting the big money on questionables.
This IMO has gotten way out of hand. I’m only a sideline player , for I have only have “shooter” grade 61s.
Ten years ago or so you would only see “rare” examples occasionally. Now it seems they are literally flooding the market.
He might be helping with that huge estate in Calif. with all the boxes….
November 7, 2015
Offline
Good work, Michael. Rick’s response is carefully written but very defensive and likely an attempt at deception. Some elements of truth thrown in for good measure, nice touch. The warning whistles and bells I was trying to ignore (just to be fair) are now joined by loud horns and buzzers and are increasingly difficult to ignore.
Mike
The sad part of this is that most of these will go into private collections and not be seen again for 10 20 or 30 years or more until someone dies. Then be for sale again and who will be around to say wait a minute i don’t think this is right.
Jay
November 7, 2015
Offline
I just read a very interesting (and depressing) article by John Kopec in the TGCA magazine about fake Artillery models and other fake Colts. Seems this problem is big and the fakers are apparently very talented. It seems “correct” barrel stamps and welded over/restamped serial numbers are very common in this area, much like the Winchesters we’re seeing.
Restorations are one thing, trying to pass them off as original is quite another.
Mike
TXGunNut said
I just read a very interesting (and depressing) article by John Kopec in the TGCA magazine about fake Artillery models and other fake Colts. Seems this problem is big and the fakers are apparently very talented. It seems “correct” barrel stamps and welded over/restamped serial numbers are very common in this area, much like the Winchesters we’re seeing.Restorations are one thing, trying to pass them off as original is quite another.
Mike
Hello Mike,
Can you post a link to the article please?
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
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