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Probably fake Model 61
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March 23, 2022 - 9:35 pm
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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/927955374

There are a couple of problems with the rifle and I would be highly suspect of the seller!

Michael

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March 23, 2022 - 9:49 pm
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Can’t speak to the rifle’s problems but I have dealt with the seller and agree.

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March 24, 2022 - 2:13 am
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His seller reviews are positive and say otherwise. 

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March 24, 2022 - 3:48 am
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RickC said
His seller reviews are positive and say otherwise.   

Rick, what’s the value of praise by novice or ill-informed, shall we say, collectors, such as make up the majority of on-line bidders?  Is there any GB seller without an A+ rating?  This particular GB seller has a l-o-n-g history of highly questionable listings.  But even if you aren’t aware of that, when a seller says “ I will not be bullied or taken advantage of and I  will block anyone that I feel is heading in that direction from bidding on my listings in the future,” don’t you think that’s a flagrant red flag?  How many other sellers feel the necessity of making such a “preemptive” statement?  It means this seller is accustomed to being regarded with suspicion & doubt, & is therefor “on-guard.”

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March 24, 2022 - 3:48 am
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RickC said
His seller reviews are positive and say otherwise.   

Don’t believe everything that you read!  Seller feedback ratings on GB are about as good as $3 bills.

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March 24, 2022 - 5:51 am
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I like the fact that they state that they are not a dealer but selling their spouse’s collection and have 739 reviews.

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March 24, 2022 - 9:45 am
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I don’t disagree. I was being facetious. Hard to believe 739 transactions & no negative reviews but as mentioned it’s the norm on GB. 

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March 24, 2022 - 7:05 pm
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rustyjack said
Can’t speak to the rifle’s problems but I have dealt with the seller and agree.  

There was a seller out of Henryetta a few years ago that I am 100% certain was selling fake Model 61’s.  The coincidence is just too coincidental!  

Michael

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March 25, 2022 - 4:25 pm
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We’ve talked about this seller in past threads – selling dubious rifles.  There was supposedly a husband involved who ran the business and then after his death, she was left with a large inventory – that she supposedly knew little about other than he left the title of a description of most of the guns.  However, some here reported they had dealt with, “almostaranch” back when the husband would have been alive – and they recall dealing with her and not him.  It also feels reminiscent of, “Dad’s Old Guns” where there is an endless supply from, “the collection.” 

I won’t cast doubt on all of the feedback and much of it may not reflect ignorance, etc.  For example, many of the guns she has sold have clearly been reblued or altered.  I think most (ok, maybe not all) of those buying them recognized this.  These pieces typically sold for about what a reblued or altered piece would sell for.  So, someone wanted a gun to hunt with, they were happy to pay a lesser price for a reblued piece, they sent her the money, she sent them the gun – why not leave positive feedback?  

If you are someone who is after, “collectible” pieces, my advice is to view most any higher condition gun from her as likely reblued.  I am basing this on what I see in the photos posted.  I don’t mean to say I have this seller all figured out.  When I first read her narrative outlining her situation, I found it somewhat plausible when I reviewed the feedback.  I noted that there were hundreds of pieces of feedback dating back to 2004.  Then, after very steady and regular feedback from 2004 to 2017, it abruptly stopped in September, 2017 and there was nothing until September, 2019.  I thought, ok, that two year gap must be when her husband passed away and after a two-year period, she started selling off the inventory.  Why else would the feedback have stopped?

What I find most suspicious to the whole story is contained in the very first piece of feedback, “almostaranch” received in December, 2004:

Lisa’s describition was accurate and I am very pleased with this Colt.I would be happy to buy from her again. I had been looking for a New Service like this for a few years.

Based on this piece of feedback, it sure looks like SHE was in the driver’s seat from the very beginning.

I stated earlier in this post that my advice is to view most any higher conditioned gun from her as likely being reblued.  I would expand statement to say (unless it is from a seller you know and trust) view most any higher condition vintage collectible gun on gunbroker as likely reblued.  CAVEAT EMPTOR.

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March 25, 2022 - 6:52 pm
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steve004 wrote:

“What I find most suspicious to the whole story is contained in the very first piece of feedback, “almostaranch” received in December, 2004:

Lisa’s describition was accurate and I am very pleased with this Colt.I would be happy to buy from her again. I had been looking for a New Service like this for a few years.

Based on this piece of feedback, it sure looks like SHE was in the driver’s seat from the very beginning.”

 

As I recall, when I first started on this evil internet, I had my wife do all my internet transactions. This could be the same situation. 

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March 25, 2022 - 6:59 pm
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Why does the rifle have three proof marks?

Maverick

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March 25, 2022 - 7:11 pm
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Jerry Roitsch said
steve004 wrote:

“What I find most suspicious to the whole story is contained in the very first piece of feedback, “almostaranch” received in December, 2004:

Lisa’s describition was accurate and I am very pleased with this Colt.I would be happy to buy from her again. I had been looking for a New Service like this for a few years.
Based on this piece of feedback, it sure looks like SHE was in the driver’s seat from the very beginning.”

 

As I recall, when I first started on this evil internet, I had my wife do all my internet transactions. This could be the same situation.   

And that could be he situation here.  There’s several pieces to the entire picture here and this isn’t the only one that gives me pause.

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March 25, 2022 - 8:06 pm
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Maverick said
Why does the rifle have three proof marks?

Maverick  

I have looked at 7,821 Model 61 rifles and have NEVER EVER seen another one with 3 proof marks.  

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March 26, 2022 - 1:10 pm
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About the 3 proof marks. I am interested in how this fact is related to the gun being possibly refinished. I cannot tell from the pictures if the 3 proofs are all forensically matching. So no help there. Are we to believe that IF the gun is refinished at what appears to be a very high level, that the restorer was so stupid as to put 3 new proofs on it no 2? Or to add a third? That is hardly possible in my view. 

Could it be factory error? Yes of course it could. Say the workman accidentally marked it on the side. Then corrected his mistake with another proof mark on top. Unlikely but still possible. 

What if the factory had a SIDE  proof marked barrel in stock? Perhaps a take off barrel from a gun the failed final inspection and was canniblized for parts. When re-proofed later on when that take off barrel was used on another gun and was struck correctly on the top. Again it is possible but not likely. 

Lastly the gun in question has a fully blued barrel face. That is not how it should appear. Should be all or partially in the white with the blue if any crawling over the edge onto the face in places. If you are familiar with rust bluing you will know how and why this happens.

My own 61 Octagon in Short only shown for reference.

Winchester-61-Octagon-22-Short-001.JPGImage EnlargerWinchester-61-Octagon-22-Short-002.JPGImage EnlargerWinchester-61-Octagon-22-Short-054.JPGImage EnlargerWinchester-61-Octagon-22-Short-055.JPGImage Enlarger

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March 27, 2022 - 2:14 am
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twobit said

I have looked at 7,821 Model 61 rifles and have NEVER EVER seen another one with 3 proof marks.  

Michael  

I’ve never seen any Winchester period with 3 proof marks. If it was factory refinished, it would probably have been stamped “Refinished” under the barrel or J.P.P. or something else to indicate such work.

Looks to been faked to me.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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March 31, 2022 - 9:06 pm
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twobit said

There was a seller out of Henryetta a few years ago that I am 100% certain was selling fake Model 61’s.  The coincidence is just too coincidental!  

Michael  

I don’t believe in coincidences. 

 

Mike

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April 1, 2022 - 5:58 am
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I have S/N 7177. It looks like S/N 7174 minus the 3rd proof mark. I am unable to see the inspector mark on the front of the receiver of the rifle in question.  My 61 S/N 7177 has a number 31 with a number 5 above the 31 on the front of the receiver. It has the usual triangle with a number 1 in side of the triangle above the number 5. I have not had the forearm off so unable to see any markings on the bottom of the barrel. If it was possible to see what is on the bottom of the barrel of the 61 in question, I would check mine.

Too bad these rifle are unable to talk. It would clear up these assumptions.

By the way my 61 S/N 7177 is for sale for $4200.  RR

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