Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Opinions on this 52c Sporter
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 488
Member Since:
March 12, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21
March 12, 2024 - 3:49 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Clarence, not doubting, just never heard this.

Steve

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 734
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22
March 12, 2024 - 3:55 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

seewin said
Bill, there is not a bright line date or s/n. As best I can tell, the the plastic (acetate butyrate) buttplate began appearing regularly in the early 91XXX range. The brazed ramps were a bit later in the latter 97XXX range. I hate to even mention these ranges because someone will pop up with a Sporter out of the particular range mentioned. I know they were gradually introduced with these changes depending on which part the assembler grabbed for the particular rifle. Where you have to be careful is when you see an example way out this range. I see examples with plastic buttplates and brazed ramps in the early production s/n ranges and always assume they are either fakes or rifles that have been modified over time. Keep in mind there were both Sporter stocks and barrels sold to Numrich Arms just prior to  USRAC purchasing Winchester. Also, they were sold through the Winchester parts department from day one.

Steve

  

Steve, Thanks. I understand the rifles were not assembled in serial number order, nor did WRA let anything go to waste. My limited understanding of the process at Winchester for introduction of an engineering change is it resulted in the appearance of a few examples on finished guns, then a mix with the newer part gradually predominating over time, until the older parts were exhausted. Except, of course, for a few squirreled away for Friends of John M. Olin and Himself, as might be required in the future (e.g. checkered steel buttplates.) I had no idea Numrich had acquired Sporter stocks and barrels and can imagine they didn’t want for eventual sales…

Also, Thanks for giving me the plastic buttplate’s correct construction material. My kitchen chem course at UT didn’t spend a lot of time on organic chemistry so I’m not sure what acetate butyrate is but presume it is cheaper than Dupont Nylon® or Olin just didn’t want to buy anything from Dupont. I must have been thinking of Remington ads from the Sixties. My Remington 600M/350 is largely built of Dupont materials (sights, rib, trigger guard and floorplate, RKW “bowling pin” stock finish; and probably the recoil pad, to their discredit – it doesn’t get its job done on that 6.5 pound bruiser.) 

Best,

Bill 

PS You will recall Herb Houze’s letter and following email to me wherein he related conversations he had with a couple of retired Winchester engineers, who told him there were two kinds of Winchester 52C Sporting barrels, which he mistakenly interpreted as “sighted” and “sightless” styles, even giving me the different part numbers. Herb obviously did not know that some C Sporters were assembled with brazed ramps. I now am inclined to believe the two barrel inventories he discussed in his letter to me were actually (1) the remaining inventory of barrels with forged ramps, and (2) an inventory of newer production made without a ramp, initially, but that were to receive a brazed ramp at a later step in the manufacturing sequence. 

That would explain Herb’s error and rationalize his response: one based on (a) lack of knowledge of the existence of the engineering change to brazed ramps, plus (b) faulty communication with the engineers and, possibly, (c) the understandably imprecise memories of elderly engineers – they were being asked to recall concisely from over a gulf of decades, minutiae uninteresting to anyone other than a few anal retentive Collectors. That they and Herb bothered to help me so industriously was commendable and generous. 

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23
March 12, 2024 - 5:01 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

seewin said
Clarence, not doubting, just never heard this.

Steve,  You’re FAR better informed on this subject than I am, so it’s more than likely I’ve been misled by spurious gunshow mythology. I would like to hear what Lou can add to this question. 

Avatar
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24
March 12, 2024 - 5:14 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Also, Thanks for giving me the plastic buttplate’s correct construction material. My kitchen chem course at UT didn’t spend a lot of time on organic chemistry so I’m not sure what acetate butyrate is but presume it is cheaper than Dupont Nylon® Zebulon said

Plastic is plastic is plastic; except Ivorine is something special! 

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 734
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25
March 12, 2024 - 3:31 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Also, Thanks for giving me the plastic buttplate’s correct construction material. My kitchen chem course at UT didn’t spend a lot of time on organic chemistry so I’m not sure what acetate butyrate is but presume it is cheaper than Dupont Nylon® Zebulon said

Plastic is plastic is plastic; except Ivorine is something special! 

  

It ain’t necessarily so (said Sportin’ Life), although I concur on Ivorine, which I believe was a celluloid preparation.   It is not as good for pistol stocks as a much later product consisting of molded ivory powder in an acrylic binder. Can’t recall the tradename.  I still remember with regret several Christmas presents of my childhood made of plastic, which didn’t make it to Easter. Whereas, old Alaska hands still venerate Remington’s Nylon stocked 22 rifles because they are almost bulletproof. 

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26
March 12, 2024 - 3:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Zebulon said

It ain’t necessarily so (said Sportin’ Life), although I concur on Ivorine, which I believe was a celluloid preparation.   It is not as good for pistol stocks as a much later product consisting of molded ivory powder in an acrylic binder. 

You are right, & though not as durable as the acrylic, the best grade of Ivorine exhibited a grain structure that could be mistaken for genuine ivory; it even yellowed as it aged like ivory.  Being derived from a natural organic material, cellulose, it wasn’t entirely a test-tube product, though I guess that’s splitting hairs.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5931
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27
March 12, 2024 - 11:31 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Zebulon said

clarence said

Also, Thanks for giving me the plastic buttplate’s correct construction material. My kitchen chem course at UT didn’t spend a lot of time on organic chemistry so I’m not sure what acetate butyrate is but presume it is cheaper than Dupont Nylon® Zebulon said

Plastic is plastic is plastic; except Ivorine is something special! 

  

It ain’t necessarily so (said Sportin’ Life), although I concur on Ivorine, which I believe was a celluloid preparation.   It is not as good for pistol stocks as a much later product consisting of molded ivory powder in an acrylic binder. Can’t recall the tradename.  I still remember with regret several Christmas presents of my childhood made of plastic, which didn’t make it to Easter. Whereas, old Alaska hands still venerate Remington’s Nylon stocked 22 rifles because they are almost bulletproof. 

  

Bill-

I believe you may be referring to ivory polymer, at least that’s what the folks at Ajax Grips called it. You probably remember Jack Rosenberg. I don’t know if it had a catchy trade name but they look good on a classy 1911.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 734
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28
March 13, 2024 - 12:20 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

Zebulon said

clarence said

Also, Thanks for giving me the plastic buttplate’s correct construction material. My kitchen chem course at UT didn’t spend a lot of time on organic chemistry so I’m not sure what acetate butyrate is but presume it is cheaper than Dupont Nylon® Zebulon said

Plastic is plastic is plastic; except Ivorine is something special! 

  

It ain’t necessarily so (said Sportin’ Life), although I concur on Ivorine, which I believe was a celluloid preparation.   It is not as good for pistol stocks as a much later product consisting of molded ivory powder in an acrylic binder. Can’t recall the tradename.  I still remember with regret several Christmas presents of my childhood made of plastic, which didn’t make it to Easter. Whereas, old Alaska hands still venerate Remington’s Nylon stocked 22 rifles because they are almost bulletproof. 

  

Bill-

I believe you may be referring to ivory polymer, at least that’s what the folks at Ajax Grips called it. You probably remember Jack Rosenberg. I don’t know if it had a catchy trade name but they look good on a classy 1911.

 

Mike

  

Hey, Mike. I do indeed remember Jack Rosenberg and have in my parts box a set of faux stag 1911 grips with Colt medallions. Handsome but sadly a bit thick for my hands. (Chip McCormick was my main man for Government Model thin grips.) image.jpgImage Enlarger The best pseudo ivory grips I’ve got are as shown on this Colt Three Fifty Seven. I ordered them from the Tyler T-grip folks a long time ago and have no idea what they are made of. 

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
March 13, 2024 - 2:07 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I do indeed remember Jack Rosenberg and have in my parts box a set of faux stag 1911 grips with Colt medallions. Zebulon said 

I bought a pair of Sambar stag grips from him for a Colt Woodsman MT.  They looked great until I put them on my gun, & saw the fit was not good–gaps between frame & grips.  Took grips & my gun back to next show, tried at least two other pairs on, & didn’t find one that fit as I thought they should, but took the best of the bunch.  Since then I’ve found that poor fit is the rule, not the exception, with genuine stag, because, I suspect, most are made in India.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5931
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
March 13, 2024 - 2:33 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Clarence-

In recent years something has happened, Ajax has not been the same since Jack died. I bought a set of Ajax 1911 grip panels several years ago and the holes didn’t even line up with the bushings on my Colt.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
March 13, 2024 - 3:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said
In recent years something has happened, Ajax has not been the same since Jack died. I bought a set of Ajax 1911 grip panels several years ago and the holes didn’t even line up with the bushings on my Colt. 

Situation to which I referred occurred mid-’80s.  Not only his that I found wanting in good fit–several I bought on ebay more recently also exhibited sloppy fit.  I realize stag is more difficult than wood to work, but at this point I’ve learned my lesson about that material, though I like it better than any other.  No doubt most other customers are easier to please.

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 734
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
March 14, 2024 - 8:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

You think?

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 488
Member Since:
March 12, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33
March 14, 2024 - 10:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hope the author of this post found out everything he wanted to know about the subject rifle. 

Steve

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 4623
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 137
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 7119
TXGunNut: 5931
Chuck: 5354
steve004: 4879
1873man: 4568
Big Larry: 2476
twobit: 2418
mrcvs: 2057
TR: 1838
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 18
Topics: 14064
Posts: 124411

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1978
Members: 9594
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation