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model 69 crossover target Humeston rear sight
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December 21, 2022 - 8:20 pm
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I am carefully cleaning up a friends GGrandfathers Model 69 that was left in an unheated out building and he thought was likely scrap metal.

I tried something different.  I got the bolt out, wrapped it and barrelled action in cotton cloth and tide it down with string.  Soaked the rags in Kroil and wrapped it in plastic and set it over the wood stove for a couple of weeks.

It came pretty much clean with nothing more than a stiff nylon brush and Membersmark degreaser.  The bluing where it is looks OK and the rest has the brown patina in tact.  There an area with rust pits that don’t look too bad.

I’m not sure if the metallurgy of 30s would have a few pits in the bore looking with a Lyman digital borescope or not.  The Kroil got all kinds of goop out of it and it is now shiny.

It is rewrapped and soaking in Kroil again.  On and off close to the wood stove.

That’s the short background.

The rear Humeston sight has stamped on it “USA PAT 2014735”.

The other pictures I have seen are like the one in Art Merrill posted Jan 4, 2018 “PAT PENDING”.

It is missing the rear aperture.

I contacted Joe (Apertures N More) and he sent me one that is the same as earlier Winchester sights with 10-48 threads.  That makes sense to me as they would have been is stock.

The one I am dealing with cleaned up well and has 8-48 thread.  The nose of a long taper 10-48 tap will not enter the hole.  The hole also measures the same as a#8 (0.163″) not a #10 (0.185).  Joe said hes been making these for over 20 years and all are 10-48.

This is the later model with the rebounding firing pin the same as Arts.

I have seen different opinions in the takedown screw.  This one is not flush  Also same as Arts.

Art places his as between Aug 1935 and Oct 1937.

With the patent number instead of pending it would seem this would be close to the end of production.

The trigger appears never to have been messed with and that would go along with the string of family owners.  Art checked his trigger on his restored rifle at 4.5#  This one is much lighter but will not trip when thumped.  I haven’t measured it yet.

I am hoping JWA or ? has any idea about the aperture thread sizing shrinking to 8-48 thread maybe when the stamping changed from Pending to the number.  According to Joe the 8-48 is a later Winchester aperture.

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December 21, 2022 - 8:43 pm
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JWA will be along shortly. He is a very busy guy, but will answer all your concerns about this rifle.

I have several M69’s and M69A’s and his book, but I am not an expert as he is, so I will leave all the answers to him.  Big LarrySmileSmileSmileSmile

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December 21, 2022 - 10:51 pm
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Hi Steve,

Welcome and good job on getting your rifle cleaned up!

It sounds as if you have a Winchester catalog # G6901R which was the Model 69 with peep sight.  I am not sure where you got the description “crossover target” but that is not a normally used nomenclature.

I did a lot of research into the 96A and 96B rear sights when writing the book on the Model 69, including gathering the original drawings and manufacturing documents.  The “Patent Pending” marking was changed to the actual patent number sometime in 1936 but it had nothing to do with the aperture threads.

All of the sights I have examined (100’s) all had the #10 sized threads, I have never seen one with #8 threads.  Can you post a picture of the sight and a close-up picture of the threads?

Best Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

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December 22, 2022 - 5:34 pm
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As a guest member I read I can’t post pictures or links.

I tried a PM and also couldn’t to get a picture included so canceled it.

I got the Crossover target from: NRA Shooting Sports USA post by Art Merrill / Field Editor “Winchester’s Target “Crossover” Model 69″

Sight threads are clean and sharp.

The tip of the #10-48 taper tap will go just past where the point sticks out the back.  It would ream all the threads out before it got to the first hint of thread on the tap.

Family says the sight has been on the rifle since it came home after the GGrandfather got out of Boot Camp before WWII.

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December 22, 2022 - 6:16 pm
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k7sparky said
As a guest member I read I can’t post pictures or links.

I tried a PM and also couldn’t to get a picture included so canceled it.

I got the Crossover target from: NRA Shooting Sports USA post by Art Merrill / Field Editor “Winchester’s Target “Crossover” Model 69″

Sight threads are clean and sharp.

The tip of the #10-48 taper tap will go just past where the point sticks out the back.  It would ream all the threads out before it got to the first hint of thread on the tap.

Family says the sight has been on the rifle since it came home after the GGrandfather got out of Boot Camp before WWII.

  

You can indeed post URL links.  If you put your pictures on a photo host website, you can then post the URL to them here on the WACA website.

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December 22, 2022 - 6:44 pm
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k7sparky said

I got the Crossover target from: NRA Shooting Sports USA post by Art Merrill / Field Editor “Winchester’s Target “Crossover” Model 69″

  

Though not Winchester’s nomenclature, that’s actually a very apt description of the 69, because somebody in the design team had the brilliance & vision to provide it with a peep sight as standard eqpt., despite the general ignorance of most American shooters regarding such sights.  Forget that the first peeps were used on crossbows, & that William Lyman had for many decades previously waged an uphill battle to convince American hunters of their superiority, the primitive crotch sight remained standard eqpt. even on Model 70s! 

Can you provide a link to that NRA article you referred to?

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December 22, 2022 - 8:37 pm
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Hi k7sparky,

I sent you my email address via Private Message if you would like me to post the pictures if you cannot get them uploaded to a URL.  

The article you are referencing has a number “literary license” descriptors in it based solely on the author’s prose.  Winchester .22 bolt action rifles have been supplied with either an open sight or a peep sight option since 1902 on most of their inexpensive models.  The peep sight alone in no way makes it a “target” model.  Most Winchester .22 models which were called “Target” have different rifling and chambering than the standard versions.  Winchester reserved that nomenclature for those rifles like the 52, 57, 69A, etc. to differentiate them from the companion “Sporting” version of the same rifle.  In the case of the 69, they were both considered sporting rifles, but one was equipped with a peep sight.  Similar to the later Model 75 Sporting rifle which was equipped with an open sight or the Lyman 57ES peep sight.  MANY, MANY people, including some authors that should know better, automatically call any Winchester .22 with a peep sight a “Target” model simply because of the peep sight and that just simply is not true.  It is a shame that some erroneous information keeps getting perpetuated.  In this case, I would consider the precursor Model 57 Target more of a “crossover” than the later 69.  And, ultimately, Winchester did introduce a true Model 69A Target in December of 1940, which by the way, had different rifling and chambering than the standard 69A (as well as a peep sight).

Clarence, here is a link to the article he is referring to – https://www.ssusa.org/content/winchester-s-target-crossover-model-69/

Best Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

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December 22, 2022 - 11:02 pm
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JWA said   MANY, MANY people, including some authors that should know better, automatically call any Winchester .22 with a peep sight a “Target” model simply because of a peep sight and that just simply is not true. 
  

Of course that simple peep sight couldn’t make it a true target rifle suitable for the Dewar Match, as we the cognoscenti are well aware, but to the majority of unsophisticated (young, probably) American shooters accustomed to open sights, I think it did make it appear something similar.  Would even the 69A Match be considered a “true target rifle” by those shooting 52s & Rem 37s in small-bore comp.?  So in that respect, the author’s “literary license” merely reflects the perception of Joe Average. 

This is the statement to which I’d take exception:  “The Model 69 came standard with a barrel mounted buckhorn rear sight, but Winchester offered this receiver mounted sight as an option or as a kind of “alternate standard,” depending on the information source.”  True enough, for the incorrigibly backward, open sights could be had, but the majority of factory ads show the peep, which is the very thing I find especially praiseworthy in Winchester’s promotion of this model–the effort to enlighten the ignorant.

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December 23, 2022 - 12:43 am
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That is why we need to help educate Joe Average otherwise the average will be perpetuated.  Here is what the auction houses are doing with that term, and another “Joe” bought that drilled and tapped “rare target crossover” rifle for $450 (+15% auction vig and shipping) – 

https://www.proxibid.com/RARE-Circa-1935-Winchester-Model-69-Target-Crossover-22-LR-Bolt-Action/lotInformation/72432701

Could have bought a true “69A Target” rifle for that amount.

Why give the puffery hucksters more fluff non-terms for their advertising?  It is hard for the average Joe to determine what is correct or not as it is.

My point is that the following youth bolt action sporting rifles were also offered as standard with a peep sight;

1902, 1904, 56, 59, 60, 60A, 67 and 68 – These all prior to the 69 which also followed suit with a standard peep offering later.  Would you call any of them a “Crossover Target” rifle?  I wouldn’t.  The precursor Model 67 was also offered with the Humeston 96 rear peep with a barrel that was 2″ longer than the 69 and has the same bore and chamber, why wouldn’t you call that a crossover target?  

I understand that there are multiple qualities which make a “Target” rifle as such.   If I was going to use Art’s “crossover” term I think it would be more applicable to the 57 Target, the 60A Target and the 75 Target which are the bridge from sporting rifles to a true target rifle like the Model 52 in my mind.

All of those rifles have the following “Target” characteristics which set them apart from their “Sporting” model twins.

a) Tighter bore and/or more lands/grooves

b) More precise chamber and chambered specifically for .22 Long Rifle only

c) Heavier and/or longer barrel

d) Heavier stock

e) And, yes, peep sights

 

The early Model 69 (G6901R) has none of those target style features and is simply a sporting rifle with a peep sight, just like the Model 1902 single shot with peep sight or the Model 67 with peep sight, etc.

Great philosophical discussion for a cold, snowy day Laugh

Best Regards,

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December 23, 2022 - 2:33 am
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JWA said

Why give the puffery hucksters more fluff non-terms for their advertising?  It is hard for the average Joe to determine what is correct or not as it is.

Well, I am rather astonished that this chance choice of gunwriter’s palaver posted in a rather obscure website could come to be used as a pseudo-technical term by auction hucksters; I’d never heard it before, but behold, the power of the internet.

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December 23, 2022 - 4:05 pm
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Yes, unfortunately everything posted on the internet is not correct, but it is there forever. 

Cautio Discipuli

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December 23, 2022 - 5:52 pm
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Well I just spent about 4 minutes trying to translate cognoscenti and Cautio Discipuli.  Philosophy, English and Latin all in one lesson.

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December 23, 2022 - 6:14 pm
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Chuck said
Well I just spent about 4 minutes trying to translate cognoscenti and Cautio Discipuli.  Philosophy, English and Latin all in one lesson.  

Yep, you can certainly tell when we are snowed-in and bored……

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December 23, 2022 - 6:31 pm
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JWA said

Yep, you can certainly tell when we are snowed-in and bored……

  

You’re not bored when you’re wondering every second how long your power will stay on, as I am now.  Two terrible storms a week apart?  In fact, hardly a week passes without some weather-related disaster in some part of the country, fire, flood, hurricane, etc..  Global warming, I don’t know, but I sure don’t remember such events coming one after another 50 yrs ago.  But not to worry, everything will be put right quickly in a country rich enough to commit 70 billion for fighting a foreign war having nothing to do with this country.

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December 24, 2022 - 6:58 pm
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My weather worries are if it is going to rain the day I want to shoot.  Targets get too soggy.

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December 24, 2022 - 7:51 pm
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Chuck said
My weather worries are if it is going to rain the day I want to shoot.  Targets get too soggy.

  

Maybe there is a market for polymer targets?  They can use the same plastic that Canadian money is made from.

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December 25, 2022 - 4:41 am
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JWA said
Yes, unfortunately everything posted on the internet is not correct, but it is there forever. 

Cautio Discipuli

  

Thanks, Jeff. My formal enlightenment of Latin ended in 1974 but point taken. 

Mike

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December 26, 2022 - 9:10 pm
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I checked Wisners for possible spring and follower for the magazine.

I knew Leeroy but his son Jim was out on his own at that time.

Anyway Jim said they don’t sell anything other than the complete magazines.  When are they run them again he didn’t say.

Leeroys collection of blown up firearms is now on a large sheet of plywood at the Centralia Rifle Range.

I’ll see if I can get a friend there to shoot a picture(s) of it.

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December 27, 2022 - 4:34 pm
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I have Wisner’s & original Winchester .22 magazines in stock & available if needed.  Information available in the Swap Meet area…

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