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February 18, 2024 - 6:28 pm
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Gentlemen, I’m curious if anyone has ever seen an original Winchester model 52,(1939) with an Iron Cross stamped in front,(forward), of “Winchester” 

with “Trade Mark”,(underneath), that’s normal , besides the fact that the Logo is Correct and everything looks all original, the stamping’s all look the same and original as I feel this was done at the Factory as everything checks out on this rifle.

Thanks in advance.Smile

Anthony

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February 18, 2024 - 7:46 pm
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Never that I can recall. How about a picture?

Steve

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February 18, 2024 - 9:03 pm
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Tiny iron crosses are stamped on some Stevens brls on either side of the Stevens name, such as a pre-1900 Favorite I have; unrelated, no doubt, but curious.  No explanation for the Stevens markings I’ve heard.  An iron cross or Maltese cross (the two are often confused) was an early Western ammo logo, but that was long before the corporate merger.

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February 19, 2024 - 2:52 am
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Just got back in and for some reason I wasn’t able to upload a picture of the Iron Cross stamp but I’ll try in the morning and see what we can come up with.

Thanks all,

Anthony

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February 19, 2024 - 11:18 am
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Interesting that the date is 1939. If the stamp is post factory, Perhaps some sort of shooting prize in Germany, just a wild guess.

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February 19, 2024 - 12:17 pm
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IMG_5971.jpgImage EnlargerI don’t know why the picture is upside down. It was straight when I sent it. I am trying to help out a friend with this Rifle as the pics. are not mine but I have his permission to post it here to try to find out what the stamp might mean and like I said earlier as I tried to blow up the pic. and look closer and every indication to me looks original as the rest of the Rifle looks to be correct including all other stampings. As far as I know there is no current WACA survey on the 52. Due to the age of the rifle It makes sense to me that it might have something to do with being pre WWII. Just a guess at this point. If it is factory I was wondering possibly if there is a way to find out who ordered it or where it was sent to as for trying to determine it’s origin.IMG_5964.jpgImage Enlarger

Thanks for any ideas and assistance,

Anthony

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February 19, 2024 - 12:26 pm
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clarence said
Tiny iron crosses are stamped on some Stevens brls on either side of the Stevens name, such as a pre-1900 Favorite I have; unrelated, no doubt, but curious.  No explanation for the Stevens markings I’ve heard.  An iron cross or Maltese cross (the two are often confused) was an early Western ammo logo, but that was long before the corporate merger.

  

Clarence I appreciate your idea and opinion and now that I was able to upload the picture of the stamp with the owners permission I am familiar with what you are stating and I agree the Iron Cross and the Maltese Cross often get mentioned as the same . I also understand the Earlier western ammo logo and that also came to mind.

Steven Gabrielli said
Interesting that the date is 1939. If the stamp is post factory, Perhaps some sort of shooting prize in Germany, just a wild guess.

Germany definitely comes to mind as I viewed this. My thoughts are if there is one from the factory for use some where at that time I would think that more would have had to be ordered. The rifle is in to good of shape and original condition to be a training rifle.IMO!

I went through Herbert Houze 52 Book and didn’t see anything with that information regarding the stamp or rifles sent overseas at that time for use elsewhere.

Anthony

  

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February 19, 2024 - 2:01 pm
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Antonio said If it is factory I was wondering possibly if there is a way to find out who ordered it or where it was sent to as for trying to determine it’s origin.
 

Negatory.  And if Seewin hasn’t seen it before, it’s probably one of a kind, as he’s seen most everything else pertaining to 52s. 

Maybe it was a mark used by some US retailer, though that doesn’t seem likely either, esp because by ’39 Germany was already being vilified in the US press.

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February 19, 2024 - 2:08 pm
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I don’t think the finish on that receiver is factory, pics of the whole rifle would be nice.

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February 19, 2024 - 2:10 pm
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I agree Clarence and I like you am looking forward to Steve’s comments along with others. I’m guessing it’s a one of a kind also, but why and what significance?

Hence this forums great resource and value to us all and if nothing else we were able to put it out there for others to view. I’m anticipating other pics from the owner as the other ones I have won’t really help here. I have found out that the serial number puts the mfg. date at the end of November in 1940. Still placing it in that time frame of the early beginnings of WWII.

Thanks for your comments,

Anthony

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February 19, 2024 - 2:15 pm
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Steven Gabrielli said
I don’t think the finish on that receiver is factory, pics of the whole rifle would be nice.

  

Steve, you could be correct as I for sure think and thought it was looking at others in the book and that I own and have handed down to family members. I’ve been wrong before and appreciate your comments as I’m working on getting more pictures.

Thanks,

Anthony

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February 19, 2024 - 2:18 pm
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Steven Gabrielli said
I don’t think the finish on that receiver is factory, pics of the whole rifle would be nice.

  

Ugly as it is, that was the finish used for the first few yrs of “B” production.

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February 19, 2024 - 2:42 pm
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Actually, from 1937-1938, the receivers on Model 52 rifles were polished and blued. In 1939, when Winchester began to catalog the BULL GUN, the receiver and the barrel on those pre-war BULL GUNS was sand blasted and blued, creating the matte finish. At some point in 1939, Winchester decided to apply that sand blasted finish to the receivers of all Model 52 rifles. That sand blasted finish was applied to Model 52 receivers for the remainder of pre-war production.  When production of civilian arms resumed after WW-II, Winchester reverted to bluing the receivers of all 52 rifles. 

BRP

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February 19, 2024 - 2:43 pm
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I have never seen this cross stamp on any 52, nor have I ever seen a stamp of any kind in front of the Winchester trademark on the RH side of receiver. The finish could be original, but it appears to be a very dark for Winchester’s light sandblast finish, which appeared more like a Parkerized finish, and looked a lot lighter and grayer color. The B’s all had polished receivers from 44402B (1st sample model) until about the mid 5XXXX range. This coincided with the model 70 receiver finishes that went through the same transition. I would like to see more pictures and the s/n would be helpful. This could very well have been a high school/college shooting team rifle that was stamped for identification. Big Larry had one with a “WHS” stamped above the s/n which I feel is most likely a stamp used to ID a high school team rifle.

Steve

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February 19, 2024 - 10:07 pm
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Blue Ridge Parson said
Actually, from 1937-1938, the receivers on Model 52 rifles were polished and blued. In 1939, when Winchester began to catalog the BULL GUN, the receiver and the barrel on those pre-war BULL GUNS was sand blasted and blued, creating the matte finish. At some point in 1939, Winchester decided to apply that sand blasted finish to the receivers of all Model 52 rifles. That sand blasted finish was applied to Model 52 receivers for the remainder of pre-war production.  When production of civilian arms resumed after WW-II, Winchester reverted to bluing the receivers of all 52 rifles. 

BRP

  

BRP,

These were my thoughts as I first looked at the pics.(as I’m waiting for more), and the more I looked at it and keeping an open mind I try to be open to all possibilities as we’ve seen some unusual things as Collectors. I have seen other “B” model’s with this type of finish. Never before the “Cross Stamp” in question.

clarence said

Steven Gabrielli said

I don’t think the finish on that receiver is factory, pics of the whole rifle would be nice.

  

Ugly as it is, that was the finish used for the first few yrs of “B” production.

  

Naturally Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Overall the other pics that I do have look nice as I’m waiting on better pics. to post.

seewin said
I have never seen this cross stamp on any 52, nor have I ever seen a stamp of any kind in front of the Winchester trademark on the RH side of receiver. The finish could be original, but it appears to be a very dark for Winchester’s light sandblast finish, which appeared more like a Parkerized finish, and looked a lot lighter and grayer color. The B’s all had polished receivers from 44402B (1st sample model) until about the mid 55XXX range. This coincided with the model 70 receiver finishes that went through the same transition. I would like to see more pictures and the s/n would be helpful. This could very well have been a high school/college shooting team rifle that was stamped for identification. Big Larry had one with a “WHS” stamped above the s/n which I feel is most likely a stamp used to ID a high school team rifle.

Steve

  

Steve,

That would make sense, as a shooting team, or High School rifle team, like Big Larry had, as was very common back in the day years ago! If the owner will give me permission to post his serial number I will due so as it was mfg. in November of 1940 according to the WACA information on this forum.

Anthony

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February 19, 2024 - 11:21 pm
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If the subject rifle was made in late 1940, it would definitely had the sandblasted finish. Furthermore, as the 52’s progressed from the first sandblasted finish in the mid 5XXXX s/n range the finish became more and more coarse, however it was always a grayish color.

Steve

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February 20, 2024 - 12:48 am
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seewin said
If the subject rifle was made in late 1940, it would definitely had the sandblasted finish. Furthermore, as the 52’s progressed from the first sandblasted finish in the mid 5XXXX s/n range the finish became more and more coarse, however it was always a grayish color.

Any idea what inspired development of this finish?  To serve the same purpose as roll-die matting on a brl?  I’d bet most shooters liked it no better than I do, or it wouldn’t have been discontinued, whatever its alleged value.

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February 20, 2024 - 9:14 pm
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Clarence,

According to Herbert G. Houze Book “The Winchester Model 52” on page 123, I just noticed upon your asking, by then Sales Manager,W. T. Birney, at Winchester “Both the barrel and receiver have the New sand-blasted satin finish, eliminating the necessity of the use of adhesive tape or smoking the barrel for the purpose of softening the light refraction”. It appears this possibly ended due to the Winchester plant War transition at about Jan. 12,13, 1942, a little more than a month after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Anthony

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February 20, 2024 - 9:31 pm
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Antonio said
According to Herbert G. Houze Book “The Winchester Model 52” on page 123, I just noticed upon your asking, by then Sales Manager,W. T. Birney, at Winchester “Both the barrel and receiver have the New sand-blasted satin finish, eliminating the necessity of the use of adhesive tape or smoking the barrel for the purpose of softening the light refraction”. It appears this possibly ended due to the Winchester plant War transition at about Jan. 12,13, 1942, a little more than a month after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. 

It was common to smoke the front sight, but never heard of smoking the brl.  Old fashioned cloth electrical tape (is it still available?) wouldn’t have been much trouble to apply.  But if match shooters had really believed this new finish was a significant advantage, it could have been resumed after the war.

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February 20, 2024 - 10:21 pm
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clarence said

Antonio said

According to Herbert G. Houze Book “The Winchester Model 52” on page 123, I just noticed upon your asking, by then Sales Manager,W. T. Birney, at Winchester “Both the barrel and receiver have the New sand-blasted satin finish, eliminating the necessity of the use of adhesive tape or smoking the barrel for the purpose of softening the light refraction”. It appears this possibly ended due to the Winchester plant War transition at about Jan. 12,13, 1942, a little more than a month after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. 

It was common to smoke the front sight, but never heard of smoking the brl.  Old fashioned cloth electrical tape (is it still available?) wouldn’t have been much trouble to apply.  But if match shooters had really believed this new finish was a significant advantage, it could have been resumed after the war.

  

Clarence,

Maybe like you suggested to earlier it wasn’t liked or customers didn’t want it as the Mode 52C was post war with the improved trigger,(52B had a problem with their trigger on this model),among other improvements as the 52C was well liked and still sought after as very collectable today, as I’m sure you’re well aware of.

On September 17, 1945 project Engineer, Edwin Pugsley, called for a meeting specifically discussing the problems with the 52B trigger mechanism and a scientific testing was undertaken to find the problems with it and improve upon in the type 52C rifle. John Olin ordered the 52B  mfg. up until October 12, 1949, and the perfected 52C to take it’s place. The model 52B was continued well into 1953 including clean up, as the 52C entered the market in 1951. At this time I see nothing in the model 52 book stating when the sand-blast finish was eliminated.

Anthony

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