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Yes, that is a reasonable assumption. Your receiver was definitely serial numbered in 1942 per the polishing room records and your rifle is the commercial version which would very likely not have been assembled during the war.
The WACA dates post WWII are not entirely correct either since WACA has access to the polishing room records from WWII but the post-war polishing room records are privately owned and not available to researchers.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
The WACA dates post WWII are not entirely correct either since WACA has access to the polishing room records from WWII but the post-war polishing room records are privately owned and not available to researchers.
A deplorable situation. Why weren’t they transferred to Cody? (But of course, Cody’s charges for records info is another deplorable situation.)
The Model 75 (and other Model) records were already disposed of by Winchester (and in private hands) prior to turning the remaining records over to Cody.
Hopefully one of these days they will become more readily accessible.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Thanks Jeff!
There is definitely quite a difference between the two sources in the 1942-1947 time frame!
Not sure how best to address this, but it does seem that the Madis numbers are more accurate in terms of giving “made on” date, if not the official “born on” SN application date.
For example, if the 105A front sight was “new” in 1947 (per the advertisement), it likely wasn’t being put on rifles in 1942. As such, someone who uses the WACA site to find out “When was my Winchester made?” might incorrectly conclude that the sight is not original to my rifle.
They might also wonder if the rifle had been rebarreled, since the barrel date is 5 years later than the reported manufacture date.
All of us here appreciate what Madis has done for us but his serial number/manufacturer dates are not one of his best efforts.
November 7, 2015
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Btbell-
George Madis knew more about Winchesters than most of us ever will. Problem is; his production date charts were based on the records of outside vendors, he says as much in his book(s). The polishing room book(s) are internal records not widely known when Madis was around. As Jeff has pointed out this 75 had a pre-war (1942) SNA date. In the firearm world, life begins when the serial number is applied to the receiver (and recorded). In the case of this 75 I suspect the war sidelined this receiver until after the war and a newly-manufactured barrel (1947) was installed and the rifle was completed. If I’m correct the 1947 barrel is correct for this 1942 SNA rifle.
Mike
In answer to your question;
is it possible that Model 75 receiver production didn’t resume until 1948?
The answer is a definite No. Based on the PR records, the Model 75 serial number application ended on October 12th, 1942 at serial number 45325. Winchester resumed receiver production & serialization in October of 1945, and on October 29th, 1945, the last serial number applied was 48970. By December 5th, 1945, serial numbers had reached 49097.
Now with that stated, what I believe you need to consider is this… Winchester never assembled any of their many & various models in serial number order. Routinely, an older receiver could sit in the bottom of a bin for months or even years before being used to assemble a complete firearm. I have personally verified (seen) instances in the Warehouse ledger records, where consecutive serial numbers were received in the warehouse as much as 19-years apart from one another.
In regards to your statement;
The WACA records also indicate that SN’s were applied to ~2,000 additional receivers in 1946, and 2,500 additional receivers in 1947.
I have no idea where you arrived at those numbers. Based on the estimated production numbers I used (for the post WW II) years) and provided in the DOM look-up tables here on the WACA website, the numbers are as follows;
1945 – 3,772
1946 – 6,765
1947 – 2,638
1948 – 5,000
The actual production numbers (records) are in possession of Pauline Muerrle.
Bert – WACA Historian
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
In answer to your question;is it possible that Model 75 receiver production didn’t resume until 1948?
The answer is a definite No. Based on the PR records, the Model 75 serial number application ended on October 12th, 1942 at serial number 45325. Winchester resumed receiver production & serialization in October of 1945, and on October 29th, 1945, the last serial number applied was 48970. By December 5th, 1945, serial numbers had reached 49097.
Now with that stated, what I believe you need to consider is this… Winchester never assembled any of their many & various models in serial number order. Routinely, an older receiver could sit in the bottom of a bin for months or even years before being used to assemble a complete firearm. I have personally verified (seen) instances in the Warehouse ledger records, where consecutive serial numbers were received in the warehouse as much as 19-years apart from one another.
In regards to your statement;
The WACA records also indicate that SN’s were applied to ~2,000 additional receivers in 1946, and 2,500 additional receivers in 1947.
I have no idea where you arrived at those numbers. Based on the estimated production numbers I used (for the post WW II) years) and provided in the DOM look-up tables here on the WACA website, the numbers are as follows;
1945 – 3,772
1946 – 6,765
1947 – 2,638
1948 – 5,000
The actual production numbers (records) are in possession of Pauline Muerrle.
Bert – WACA Historian
Bert,
You may want to check the coding behind the date lookup table. Those numbers are based on the results of the dates provided by the WACA date lookup tool. The tool does not reflect what you just posted for 1945; actually, it skips 1945 entirely.
When I plug SNs 48970 and 49097 in for the Model 75 it says they were made in 1942.
When I plug SN 49098 in for the Model 75 it says it was made in 1946.
EWH
Hmmm… I did not do any of the coding for the look-up tables. I simply provided the data for the tables.
Because the CFM does not have most of the Model 75 records, I used the Madis numbers for the early years, and estimated the Post WW II production numbers. The table below is what I provided for the WACA website. The numbers shown in bold italics are from the Polishing Room records
| 1938 | 1198 |
| 1939 | 7337 |
| 1940 | 13256 |
| 1941 | 29014 |
| 1942 | 45325 |
| 1943 | None |
| 1944 | None |
| 1945 | 49097 |
| 1946 | 55862 |
| 1947 | 58500 |
| 1948 | 63500 |
| 1949 | 68600 |
| 1950 | 75955 |
| 1951 | 79425 |
| 1952 | 81448 |
| 1953 | 82421 |
| 1954 | 84235 |
| 1955 | 84967 |
| 1956 | 86946 |
| 1957 | 88654 |
| 1958 | 88714 |
| 1959 | 89000 |
| 1960 | 89300 |
| 1961 | 89338 |
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
BTBell,
I finally made it home for a day and looked in my files. The G7501R with the 105A and 58E combo was only offered by Winchester from 1946-1948. After 1948 the G7501R used the 105A with the Redfield 75 rear sight. So, with a 1947 barrel your “assemble” date is either 1947 or 1948. That is probably as close as you are going to get for a date of assembly (unless your 75 has a swept bolt, then it was made in late 1948).
As Bert stated, the serial numbers were not used sequentially, and on top of that, Winchester tended to use up any/all usable parts to assemble rifles to reduce waste which creates the “Parts Cleanup” category of rifles which do not fit the normal production patterns.
I have a 75 Sporting rifle, serial number 88998 and the serial number was applied March 4, 1959. After the 75 was discontinued there were still at least 300 rifles (or receivers) that were serial numbered for another couple of years after the official discontinuation of the Model 75.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
All this would be mute if Winchester, or Olin in this particular case, had the foresight to record , catalog and protect the history of each individual weapon as Colt did. It would be wonderful to be able to discover the when and who attached to our rifles and shotguns.
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
Vince said
All this would be mute if Winchester, or Olin in this particular case, had the foresight to record , catalog and protect the history of each individual weapon as Colt did. It would be wonderful to be able to discover the when and who attached to our rifles and shotguns.
Colt doesn’t have records for all of the guns they manufactured. Try to get a letter on most of the percussion guns.
I have more than a dozen letters from Colt and almost all of them were shipped to a hardware store.
Chuck said
I have more than a dozen letters from Colt and almost all of them were shipped to a hardware store.
Ditto for S&W. Few customers ordered directly from the factory.
(PS–How does Colt’s rip-off for a letter compare with S&W’s: $75.)
Interesting, I was of the opinion both Colt and S&W had good records but I guess nobody had any idea how interested people would be in a hundred plus years.
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
clarence said
Chuck said
I have more than a dozen letters from Colt and almost all of them were shipped to a hardware store.
Ditto for S&W. Few customers ordered directly from the factory.
(PS–How does Colt’s rip-off for a letter compare with S&W’s: $75.)
Clarence, open the link I attached and it will show what guns will letter and the starting costs. Starting cost means that if they find something “special” they can raise the price of the letter.
I have a 75 with a Mossberg M4c scope. Been in the family forever. Heavy barrel, magazine fed, target rifle with adjustable positions for the sling in the forend of the stock. I’ve gone through this thread and unless the Marine in me has come to the surface the SN’s completely skip this one. 75434 This number doesn’t seem to fall in any of the production year numbers.
Thank you!
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