Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Issue re Winchester Model 75 Dates of Manufacture
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
November 12, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
June 20, 2019 - 11:54 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost
Hello,
I have a Win 75T which is (I think) a fairly run of the mill rifle, with no unusual markings. 
It has been in the family for decades, and possibly/probably was purchased new. 
It came with a Winchester 105A front sight, a Lyman 58E rear sight, and Winchester sling, as shown in this September 1947 Boys’ Life advertisement:  
 
 
The date on the barrel is “47”, and the SN is 40428. 
According to Madis/Schwing, (see https://proofhouse.com/win/index.html among other places) this gives a DOM of 1947.
 
However, the WACA DOM page says it’s 1942, which seems inconsistent with the sights and the barrel. 
I do understand that there exist polishing room records which support the earlier date.  
 
Should I perhaps conclude that the SN was applied to the receiver in 1942, but that the gun was not assembled & shipped until 1947?
 
A comparison of the end-of-year SN’s from the two sources is as follows:
 
Year        Madis        WACA
1938          1198          1198
1939          7337          7336
1940        13256        13254
1941        29014        29011
1942        35439        49097
1943        35484          None
1944        None           None
1945        None           None
1946        39804        51000
1947        46592        53500
1948        55913        55862
1949        68652        68600
1950        76008        75955
1951        79479        79425
1952        81508        81448
1953        82481        82421
1954        84295        84235
1955        85027        84967
1956        87006        86946
1957        88714        88654
1958      ~89000        88715
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1865
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
June 21, 2019 - 12:26 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Yes, that is a reasonable assumption.  Your receiver was definitely serial numbered in 1942 per the polishing room records and your rifle is the commercial version which would very likely not have been assembled during the war.

The WACA dates post WWII are not entirely correct either since WACA has access to the polishing room records from WWII but the post-war polishing room records are privately owned and not available to researchers.

Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

http://rimfirepublications.com/  

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 4566
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
3
June 21, 2019 - 12:51 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

JWA said

The WACA dates post WWII are not entirely correct either since WACA has access to the polishing room records from WWII but the post-war polishing room records are privately owned and not available to researchers.
  

A deplorable situation.  Why weren’t they transferred to Cody?  (But of course, Cody’s charges for records info is another deplorable situation.)

Avatar
Location: 32000' +
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1865
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
June 21, 2019 - 1:39 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

The Model 75 (and other Model) records were already disposed of by Winchester (and in private hands) prior to turning the remaining records over to Cody.

Hopefully one of these days they will become more readily accessible.

Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

http://rimfirepublications.com/  

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
November 12, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
June 21, 2019 - 2:02 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Thanks Jeff!

There is definitely quite a difference between the two sources in the 1942-1947 time frame!

Not sure how best to address this, but it does seem that the Madis numbers are more accurate in terms of giving “made on” date, if not the official “born on” SN application date.

For example, if the 105A front sight was “new” in 1947 (per the advertisement), it likely wasn’t being put on rifles in 1942. As such, someone who uses the WACA site to find out “When was my Winchester made?” might incorrectly conclude that the sight is not original to my rifle.

They might also wonder if the rifle had been rebarreled, since the barrel date is 5 years later than the reported manufacture date.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3671
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
June 21, 2019 - 5:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

All of us here appreciate what Madis has done for us but his serial number/manufacturer dates are not one of his best efforts.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3989
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
June 22, 2019 - 3:48 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Btbell-

George Madis knew more about Winchesters than most of us ever will. Problem is; his production date charts were based on the records of outside vendors, he says as much in his book(s). The polishing room book(s) are internal records not widely known when Madis was around. As Jeff has pointed out this 75 had a pre-war (1942) SNA date. In the firearm world, life begins when the serial number is applied to the receiver (and recorded). In the case of this 75 I suspect the war sidelined this receiver until after the war and a newly-manufactured barrel (1947) was installed and the rifle was completed. If I’m correct the 1947 barrel is correct for this 1942 SNA rifle. 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
November 12, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
June 22, 2019 - 6:26 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost
Mike,
 
I’m pretty sure that my SN # 40428 is a 100% original unaltered rifle, assembled (and most likely purchased) in 1947.
 
I was unaware that Madis was using supplier records to generate Winchester production estimates, but in the absence of Winchester’s own records, that sounds like a reasonable approach.  Ideally one would want to have data from multiple suppliers to give higher confidence to the numbers.
 
I understand the argument for using the SN application date as the “born on” date, and for the most part, I think that works well because the time interval between SN application and shipping of the completed gun is usually (I assume) relatively short.
 
This is an odd situation in which in 1942 SN’s were applied to (apparently) ~20,000 receivers, of which (apparently) only ~6,500 were immediately assembled into rifles, with the rest of the inventory (apparently) being used in 1946, 1947, and 1948.
 
The WACA records also indicate that SN’s were applied to ~2,000 additional receivers in 1946, and 2,500 additional receivers in 1947.  If Madis’ numbers do indeed somewhat approximate shipments, then the last of the 1942 receivers (~SN # 49000) would not have been used until several months into 1948.  So why was it necessary to make new receivers in 1946 and 1947?  Jeff indicated the post-war WACA numbers are estimates; is it possible that Model 75 receiver production didn’t resume until 1948?
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12964
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
9
June 22, 2019 - 5:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

In answer to your question;

is it possible that Model 75 receiver production didn’t resume until 1948?

The answer is a definite No.  Based on the PR records, the Model 75 serial number application ended on October 12th, 1942 at serial number 45325.  Winchester resumed receiver production & serialization in October of 1945, and on October 29th, 1945, the last serial number applied was 48970.  By December 5th, 1945, serial numbers had reached 49097.

Now with that stated, what I believe you need to consider is this… Winchester never assembled any of their many & various models in serial number order.  Routinely, an older receiver could sit in the bottom of a bin for months or even years before being used to assemble a complete firearm.  I have personally verified (seen) instances in the Warehouse ledger records, where consecutive serial numbers were received in the warehouse as much as 19-years apart from one another.

In regards to your statement;

The WACA records also indicate that SN’s were applied to ~2,000 additional receivers in 1946, and 2,500 additional receivers in 1947.

I have no idea where you arrived at those numbers.  Based on the estimated production numbers I used (for the post WW II) years) and provided in the DOM look-up tables here on the WACA website, the numbers are as follows;

1945 – 3,772

1946 – 6,765

1947 – 2,638

1948 – 5,000

The actual production numbers (records) are in possession of Pauline Muerrle.

Bert – WACA Historian

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 97
Member Since:
July 21, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
June 22, 2019 - 6:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Bert H. said
In answer to your question;

is it possible that Model 75 receiver production didn’t resume until 1948?

The answer is a definite No.  Based on the PR records, the Model 75 serial number application ended on October 12th, 1942 at serial number 45325.  Winchester resumed receiver production & serialization in October of 1945, and on October 29th, 1945, the last serial number applied was 48970.  By December 5th, 1945, serial numbers had reached 49097.

Now with that stated, what I believe you need to consider is this… Winchester never assembled any of their many & various models in serial number order.  Routinely, an older receiver could sit in the bottom of a bin for months or even years before being used to assemble a complete firearm.  I have personally verified (seen) instances in the Warehouse ledger records, where consecutive serial numbers were received in the warehouse as much as 19-years apart from one another.

In regards to your statement;

The WACA records also indicate that SN’s were applied to ~2,000 additional receivers in 1946, and 2,500 additional receivers in 1947.

I have no idea where you arrived at those numbers.  Based on the estimated production numbers I used (for the post WW II) years) and provided in the DOM look-up tables here on the WACA website, the numbers are as follows;

1945 – 3,772

1946 – 6,765

1947 – 2,638

1948 – 5,000

The actual production numbers (records) are in possession of Pauline Muerrle.

Bert – WACA Historian  

 

Bert,
 
You may want to check the coding behind the date lookup table. Those numbers are based on the results of the dates provided by the WACA date lookup tool. The tool does not reflect what you just posted for 1945; actually, it skips 1945 entirely.


When I plug SNs 48970 and 49097 in for the Model 75 it says they were made in 1942.
When I plug SN 49098 in for the Model 75 it says it was made in 1946.

 

EWH

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
November 12, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
June 22, 2019 - 7:22 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost
Bert,
Thanks for the detailed response.  
 
The “WACA numbers” I posted above came from the WACA DOM lookup tables. 
 
Using trial-and-error I worked out the last SN for each year.  So, for example, SN 51000 returned a DOM value of 1946, but SN 51001 returned a DOM value of 1947.
 
Similarly, SN 49097 returns a DOM value of 1942, and SN 49098 returns a DOM value of 1946, skipping 1943, 1944, and 1945.
 
Since 49097 is the last number before 1946, and 51000 is the last number of 1946, the difference (production from 1946) is about 2000 receivers.  obviously if the DOM lookup tables are incorrect, then the derived production numbers will be incorrect.
 
As stated above, I’m not sure of the best way to address this, but it does seem that the WACA DOM lookup tables might need some adjustment.  Using the info in your post, it seems that the end-of-year DOM SN’s should be as follows:
 
1942        45325
1943        None
1944        None
1945        49097
1946        55862
1947        58500
1948        63500 
 
Hope this helps!
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12964
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
12
June 22, 2019 - 7:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Hmmm…  I did not do any of the coding for the look-up tables.  I simply provided the data for the tables.

Because the CFM does not have most of the Model 75 records, I used the Madis numbers for the early years, and estimated the Post WW II production numbers.  The table below is what I provided for the WACA website.  The numbers shown in bold italics are from the Polishing Room records

1938 1198
1939 7337
1940 13256
1941 29014
1942 45325
1943 None
1944 None
1945 49097
1946 55862
1947 58500
1948 63500
1949 68600
1950 75955
1951 79425
1952 81448
1953 82421
1954 84235
1955 84967
1956 86946
1957 88654
1958 88714
1959 89000
1960 89300
1961 89338

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Location: 32000' +
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1865
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
June 23, 2019 - 12:02 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

BTBell,

I finally made it home for a day and looked in my files.  The G7501R with the 105A and 58E combo was only offered by Winchester from 1946-1948.  After 1948 the G7501R used the 105A with the Redfield 75 rear sight.  So, with a 1947 barrel your “assemble” date is either 1947 or 1948.  That is probably as close as you are going to get for a date of assembly (unless your 75 has a swept bolt, then it was made in late 1948).

As Bert stated, the serial numbers were not used sequentially, and on top of that, Winchester tended to use up any/all usable parts to assemble rifles to reduce waste which creates the “Parts Cleanup” category of rifles which do not fit the normal production patterns.

I have a 75 Sporting rifle, serial number 88998 and the serial number was applied March 4, 1959.  After the 75 was discontinued there were still at least 300 rifles (or receivers) that were serial numbered for another couple of years after the official discontinuation of the Model 75.

Best Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

http://rimfirepublications.com/  

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
November 12, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
June 23, 2019 - 2:56 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost
Jeff and Bert,
 
Thanks for the responses.  
 
The story in the family is that the original owner received the gun on the occasion of his 18th birthday and/or graduation from a military boarding school, both of which happened in the summer of 1947.  The family lived in a rural farming community, so it’s also likely it was purchased by mail order.
 
So while I have high confidence, I can’t actually **prove** it was purchased in 1947.  (And yes, the bolt is straight, not swept.)
 
I still find it odd that Winchester would be shipping guns with 40XXX SN at the same time it was making new receivers with 56XXX SN, but I suppose that’s just one of the idiosyncracies of Winchester.  Still it seems very dangerous in a manufacturing business where styles change to maintain such (apparently) large parts inventories.
 
Hopefully this exercise has been an opportunity to review the numbers, and maybe make an improvement or two to the WACA DOM lookup tables.
 
And maybe one day CFM will get access to the rest of the records, so that less guesswork will be necessary to know the history of these fine guns!
 
Thanks again!
Avatar
SO. Oregon
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 685
Member Since:
June 5, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
June 25, 2019 - 6:57 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

All this would be mute if Winchester,  or Olin in this particular case, had the foresight to record , catalog and protect the history of each individual weapon as Colt did. It would be wonderful to be able to discover the when and who attached to our rifles and shotguns. 

Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles

 “There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”

Teddy Roosevelt 

4029-1.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3671
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
June 25, 2019 - 10:59 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Vince said
All this would be mute if Winchester,  or Olin in this particular case, had the foresight to record , catalog and protect the history of each individual weapon as Colt did. It would be wonderful to be able to discover the when and who attached to our rifles and shotguns.   

Colt doesn’t have records for all of the guns they manufactured. Try to get a letter on most of the percussion guns.  

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/3a0ff863-725b-4ed1-b811-0d1e27128917/downloads/1c71kbat5_89036.pdf?ver=1552595470347

I have more than a dozen letters from Colt and almost all of them were shipped to a hardware store.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 4566
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
17
June 26, 2019 - 2:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Chuck said

I have more than a dozen letters from Colt and almost all of them were shipped to a hardware store.  

Ditto for S&W.  Few customers ordered directly from the factory.

(PS–How does Colt’s rip-off for a letter compare with S&W’s:  $75.)

Avatar
SO. Oregon
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 685
Member Since:
June 5, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
June 26, 2019 - 5:55 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Interesting, I was of the opinion both Colt and S&W had good records but I guess nobody had any idea how interested people would be in a hundred plus years.

Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles

 “There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”

Teddy Roosevelt 

4029-1.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3671
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
June 26, 2019 - 4:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

clarence said

Chuck said

I have more than a dozen letters from Colt and almost all of them were shipped to a hardware store.  

Ditto for S&W.  Few customers ordered directly from the factory.

(PS–How does Colt’s rip-off for a letter compare with S&W’s:  $75.)  

Clarence, open the link I attached and it will show what guns will letter and the starting costs.  Starting cost means that if they find something “special” they can raise the price of the letter.

Avatar
Shaun
Guest
WACA Guest
20
January 1, 2021 - 3:22 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

I have a 75 with a Mossberg M4c scope.  Been in the family forever. Heavy barrel, magazine fed, target rifle with adjustable positions for the sling in the forend of the stock.  I’ve gone through this thread and unless the Marine in me has come to the surface the SN’s completely skip this one.  75434  This number doesn’t seem to fall in any of the production year numbers.

 

Thank you!

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 628
Currently Online: Bert H., wally, 1873man, clarence, Darrin Smith, [email protected]
Guest(s) 55
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
1873man: 5271
clarence: 4563
TXGunNut: 3989
Chuck: 3671
steve004: 3291
twobit: 2865
Maverick: 2039
JWA: 1865
Big Larry: 1810
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 16
Topics: 10653
Posts: 91911

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1478
Members: 11727
Moderators: 3
Admins: 3
Navigation