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February 16, 2024
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Hi Folks,
New to WACA!
I have a Win. 61 in .22 mag., SN 312469. Winchester has advised me that it was made in 1959. The barrel has only the proof mark and no other stampings. The rifle is in excellent condition; and, when compared to another 61 mag I have, the finish on the two barrels are identical under a 10X loupe.
Any thoughts on why the barrel has no markings, other than the proof mark? Winchester said it is probably a replacement when I posed the question to them, asking if it might have been gifted from the factory, lunch box, factory oversight, meant for factory refinishing, etc.
Thanks,
Barry
April 15, 2005
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Hello Barry,
Model 61 s/n 312469 was not manufactured in the year 1959, and it was not “Winchester” that you advised you. The people that you apparently spoke with are actually employees of the Browning Arms Company (BACO), and they do not have any accurate information concerning the older (pre-1981) production firearms that were actually manufactured by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. They simply refer to an erroneous reference source that was published more than 40 years ago.
Model 61 s/n 312469 was actually manufactured in the latter half of the year 1961. Why it has no markings other than a proof mark is perplexing. One thing I am relatively certain about, is that it did not leave the Winchester factory through normal production channels with an unmarked barrel. There are entities out there that can easily duplicate the bluing methods that Winchester used in the early 1960s. Pictures of the barrel and rifle would be useful.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 30, 2023
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So, I’m currently reading the Schwing books on the slide actions (only partway through Vol 1) and want to end up in the future with a few of these slide actions…caught this thread when new posts recently got made. Are the model 61s just more disposed towards fakery than others, or is it common across all the models?
From all this, I assume the knowledge in the books I’m reading is gold on what to look for…
April 15, 2005
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Jeremy P said
So, I’m currently reading the Schwing books on the slide actions (only partway through Vol 1) and want to end up in the future with a few of these slide actions…caught this thread when new posts recently got made. Are the model 61s just more disposed towards fakery than others, or is it common across all the models?From all this, I assume the knowledge in the books I’m reading is gold on what to look for…
One only has to mention the name C.H. Key to open up the dirty subject about fake Model 61 rifles.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 30, 2023
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Bert H. said
Jeremy P said
So, I’m currently reading the Schwing books on the slide actions (only partway through Vol 1) and want to end up in the future with a few of these slide actions…caught this thread when new posts recently got made. Are the model 61s just more disposed towards fakery than others, or is it common across all the models?
From all this, I assume the knowledge in the books I’m reading is gold on what to look for…
One only has to mention the name C.H. Key to open up the dirty subject about fake Model 61 rifles.
Clearly I have some research and reading to do!
March 20, 2009
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Jeremy P said
So, I’m currently reading the Schwing books on the slide actions (only partway through Vol 1) and want to end up in the future with a few of these slide actions…caught this thread when new posts recently got made. Are the model 61s just more disposed towards fakery than others, or is it common across all the models?From all this, I assume the knowledge in the books I’m reading is gold on what to look for…
Hello Jeremy,
Schwing’s book is pretty much the best source out there. The second best additional source is me. I have spent 10 years cataloging just over 9100 individual Model 61 rifles and I ma happy to answer any questions that you might have. The Model 61 is fairly easy to modify and “fake” since someone can buy a real nice original standard rifle and switch out the barrel to a modern fake barrel and triple the potential value of the gun. There are lots of these rifles from the 40’s 50’s and 60’s that have seen little use and therefore the receiver and wood are in very good condition. Slap a brand new barrel on it and it can be VERY difficult for new collectors to know the difference. You can’t do that with a 120 year old rifle. The chance that some of it is pristine is far less and a new barrel on an old gun is very obvious.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
March 20, 2009
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Barry Kneeland said
Hi Folks,New to WACA!
I have a Win. 61 in .22 mag., SN 312469. Winchester has advised me that it was made in 1959. The barrel has only the proof mark and no other stampings. The rifle is in excellent condition; and, when compared to another 61 mag I have, the finish on the two barrels are identical under a 10X loupe.
Any thoughts on why the barrel has no markings, other than the proof mark? Winchester said it is probably a replacement when I posed the question to them, asking if it might have been gifted from the factory, lunch box, factory oversight, meant for factory refinishing, etc.
Thanks,
Barry
Hello Barry and welcome to WACA,
I am the author of this forum thread.
Send me a series of images of your Model 61 rifle and I will be happy to advise you. Is there an “A” stamped below the serial number? My email address is [email protected]
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
March 20, 2009
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Bert H. said
Jeremy P said
So, I’m currently reading the Schwing books on the slide actions (only partway through Vol 1) and want to end up in the future with a few of these slide actions…caught this thread when new posts recently got made. Are the model 61s just more disposed towards fakery than others, or is it common across all the models.
From all this, I assume the knowledge in the books I’m reading is gold on what to look for…
One only has to mention the name C.H. Key to open up the dirty subject about fake Model 61 rifles.
Absolutely!!! He and his cohorts produced MANY altered and fake guns. I documented quite a few of them.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
April 30, 2023
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twobit said
Jeremy P said
So, I’m currently reading the Schwing books on the slide actions (only partway through Vol 1) and want to end up in the future with a few of these slide actions…caught this thread when new posts recently got made. Are the model 61s just more disposed towards fakery than others, or is it common across all the models?
From all this, I assume the knowledge in the books I’m reading is gold on what to look for…
Hello Jeremy,
Schwing’s book is pretty much the best source out there. The second best additional source is me. I have spent 10 years cataloging just over 9100 individual Model 61 rifles and I ma happy to answer any questions that you might have. The Model 61 is fairly easy to modify and “fake” since someone can buy a real nice original standard rifle and switch out the barrel to a modern fake barrel and triple the potential value of the gun. There are lots of these rifles from the 40’s 50’s and 60’s that have seen little use and therefore the receiver and wood are in very good condition. Slap a brand new barrel on it and it can be VERY difficult for new collectors to know the difference. You can’t do that with a 120 year old rifle. The chance that some of it is pristine is far less and a new barrel on an old gun is very obvious.
Michael
Thanks Michael, makes sense on the fakability of the 61s when you point that out. I have learned so much in the last 18 or so months with the levers, I’m starting to have a “just OK” eye at what “looks right” and what doesn’t….I try not to overstay my welcome asking too many opinions on guns listed for sale, etc. but then again, everyone’s been so helpful and I appreciate that. I will definitely reach out once I get to the point I want to acquire some slides!
March 31, 2009
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Jeremy, keep asking. Everyone learns from other peoples questions.
December 25, 2016
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Let me guess good ol USRAC stoked the furnaces in New Haven with the production records? That’s the case for the M-12 shotguns, loads O fakes and restorations claimed as original. I’d guess they were none too fussy about what they burned? It does keep everybody on their toes 100 years later. I like that ol Doug has been known to show up at high end auctions featuring Turnbull guns, just to keep seller’s honest, his guys work will fool the experts.
April 15, 2005
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Ricklin said
Let me guess good ol USRAC stoked the furnaces in New Haven with the production records? That’s the case for the M-12 shotguns, loads O fakes and restorations claimed as original. I’d guess they were none too fussy about what they burned? It does keep everybody on their toes 100 years later. I like that ol Doug has been known to show up at high end auctions featuring Turnbull guns, just to keep seller’s honest, his guys work will fool the experts.
It wasn’t the USRACo that destroyed most of the Model 12 records (or Model 61 records)… instead, it was Winchester that burned them in the factory furnaces before the GCA of 1968 was enacted. The USRACo did toss some of the remaining Winchester records in the dumpsters in the early 1980s, and fortunately for us, Pauline Muerrle rescued some of them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 25, 2016
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Bert you are a veritable font of knowledge…. Now with regard to what might actually be useful……..
Just joshing Bert, we all appreciate your deep knowledge of all things Winchester. Thank you. It’s great that Pauline rescued those records. I “rescued” a whole bunch of new in the box parts for old dental equipment when I served. The med maintenance troops just put them in my trunk instead of putting the new parts in the dumpster. Most were special heated hoses that sold for a couple hundred per copy. When I became a civilian again I learned just how valuable those parts were. A couple hundred bucks per hose and I had a couple dozen of them factory new. Woo Hoo…. I had a dentist buy three of them and put them away in his safe so he would always have warm water.
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