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1885 low wall 22 short musket
December 23, 2018
8:48 pm
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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I recently picked up a 1885 22 short low wall  musket configuration it’s birth date is 1917 and it’s not stamped as a winder ,was wondering how many of these were made and how late were they made ?

December 23, 2018
10:18 pm
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Kingston, WA
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From your description, you have a non-ordnance marked 3rd variation Winder Musket.  It is very unlikely for it to have been manufactured in the year 1917, as Winchester did not begin production of the 3rd variation until January 1918.  What is the serial number?  Production of the 3rd variation Winder Muskets took place from January 1918 through June 1920, with a parts clean-up taking place over about an 18-month period after that time.  There were 11,419 delivered to the U.S. Army (on four different contracts) in 1918 & 1919.  There were at least a few thousand more that were manufactured and sold in the civilian market, most notably in 1919 & 1920 to the NRA Junior Rifle Corps.

Does it have a Lyman No. 53 receiver mounted peep sight?  Does the butt plate have a trapdoor in it?

Bert

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High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

December 23, 2018
11:03 pm
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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The serial # is 119049 no receiver sight and plain looking carbine style but plate 28” barrel has a military looking sight musket wood configuration

December 24, 2018
12:25 am
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Kingston, WA
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Can you post as clear close-up picture of the right-hand side of the receiver frame?

Serial number 119049 was applied in late 1917, and it is right in the middle of a batch of late production 2nd variation (high-wall) Winder Muskets. I have thus far surveyed serial numbers 119005, 119057, 119060, 119063, and 119065, all verified as 2nd variation high-wall Winder Muskets (in 22 Long R.) . The 2nd variation Winder Muskets used a barrel mounted Springfield Krag Model 1901 wind-gauge rear sight.

I would like to see pictures of your Winder Musket, to include the seem between the lower tang and the receiver frame.

Bert

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High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

December 24, 2018
11:43 am
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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Will try to 

December 24, 2018
11:57 am
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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C69482AA-CD3D-4016-841A-443796F44DAC.jpegImage Enlarger39A63E69-0FA5-452B-878B-A305C0F3D2BC.jpegImage Enlarger2E8EC88C-DE52-495B-B3CD-80806C18CD6E.jpegImage Enlarger7556020B-98FC-41E3-9BF3-99B4C612FB96.jpegImage Enlarger0701D523-CB0A-421E-BD6C-C0297B44C127.jpegImage Enlarger937D0A5B-B925-400F-94CD-B653DE3028AB.jpegImage Enlarger Here are some pics of my 1885 I got it in a estate sale it was bundled up with a 1892 carbine that I wanted ,I was told it was a 1917 not really sure more of a 1886 guy ,any info would be appreciated 

December 24, 2018
12:08 pm
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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December 24, 2018
6:06 pm
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rlausier.138@hotmail.com said
D30B0259-A904-4511-B51C-210F515966A7.jpegImage Enlarger51ED2F77-ED47-4DB7-B863-A816A9A4E547.jpegImage Enlarger6315ACD9-E233-45F7-B45F-B844D276690F.jpegImage EnlargerF82E9A70-68B0-4F96-8619-907CE617220C.jpegImage Enlarger7A92F4BE-7A1F-4802-874B-C6A9C312EEB6.jpegImage Enlarger2DA8AFFB-4AD0-4FAC-8939-E1DABF1DB999.jpegImage Enlarger9204F6F1-10E9-428D-95B1-78ADD1C3C232.jpegImage Enlarger

Hope these help I can get more if needed ,once again thanks for any info !!  

Appears to be a high wall.  Bert will clear it up.

December 24, 2018
7:36 pm
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Chuck said

Appears to be a high wall.

"Appears"?

December 24, 2018
7:53 pm
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Kingston, WA
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It is definitely a 2nd variation high-wall versus a 3rd variation low-wall.  Most of the 2nd variation Winder Muskets were chambered for the 22 LONG R. (long rifle) cartridge... are you sure that it is a 22 SHORT ?

The rear sight is a Springfield Krag Model 1901 wind-gauge, and was standard on the 2nd variation Winder Muskets.

The 2nd variation Winder Muskets were introduced in December of 1911, and discontinued in mid-year 1918 (replaced by the 3rd variation).  The exact number of them that were manufactured is unknown, but my research survey estimate is 4,000 - 4,200.

Bert

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High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

December 24, 2018
11:20 pm
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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Barrel stamped 22 short 

December 25, 2018
1:02 am
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Kingston, WA
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rlausier.138@hotmail.com said
Barrel stamped 22 short   

Thanks. I took a look at my research survey, and thus far I have a total of (535) 2nd variation Winder Muskets documented, and of that number (118) of them are in 22 Short.

Bert

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High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

December 25, 2018
1:58 am
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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Thanks for the info ,not many produced like this one ,I guess that’s good not much of an 1885 guy I have another hi wall in 32-40 target not in as in nice shape ,does this make it anymore collectible than other winders ?

I personally collect 1886’s 1892’s and Model 71’s

December 25, 2018
2:30 am
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Kingston, WA
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In answer to your question, No, it does not make it more collectable. The Winder Muskets that collectors go after are the U.S. ordnance marked 3rd variations, and the 1st & 2nd variation Winder Muskets in 22 Long Rifle, especially those with a Take Down receiver frame. The high-wall Winder Muskets in 22 Short are less common, but are the least desirable.

Bert

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High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

December 25, 2018
11:33 am
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Errol NH. Great North Woods
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Thank you for your time and education !!

December 25, 2018
5:26 pm
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clarence said

Chuck said
Appears to be a high wall.

"Appears"?  

Yep.  Bert appears to think so too.Laugh

January 14, 2020
3:56 am
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Matt-N
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Would a low-wall chambered in .22 short be able to fire .22LR?  I know of one that I believe is vintage 1900-1910 (if I remember correctly), and I wondered about that chambering for an action that is so strong...  Seems like it should.

Thanks in advance....

Matt

January 14, 2020
4:23 am
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Kingston, WA
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Hello Matt,

If you have a Model 1885 Winder Musket chambered for 22 Short, it should not fully chamber a 22 Long Rifle cartridge (unless it has been modified). Further, the rifling twist rate in the 22 Short chambered barrel is too slow to properly stabilize the heavier 22 LR bullet, resulting in poor accuracy.

In regards the strength question, for action is plenty stout enough. I have a Winder Musket converted to shoot the 22 K-Hornet (an improved & stouter variant of the 22 Hornet cartridge).

What is the serial number on your Winder Musket?

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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