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Chuck said
Will the gun letter? Looks nice. Unusual wood on the stock.
The serial number is 162161 and it is on the bottom tang which is integral with the receiver where the saddle ring is. I can’t imagine it wouldn’t letter. The wood is nice, I took the butt plate off and the wood work under the butt plate certainly looks factory. It even has the cleaning kit in the butt…
The serial is in the letterable range. Any assembly numbers on the stocks?
https://centerofthewest.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/2019-Winchester-List.pdf
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I’ve never seen a knot in the wood on a stock before. Interesting, and glossy.
The engraving does not look factory to me.
I won’t even pretend to be an expert on engraving, but I can see that it is well worn. The wood appears to have very little wear outside of a few dents. It has also had new finish applied and the shape of the nose on the forend is way off from an original 1866 carbine. No matter that the numbers match the tang, I don’t think the wood is original. Just my opinion.
If you open each image of the assembly numbers in a new window and then compare the style of each digit you will find that they do not match. Look at the base of the 2’s in each. The 8 is upside down on the wood. And the 3’s also look different to me. There is more closer on the 3 in the stamp on the tang.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
One other BIG problem is the front sight. If you look at he 1866 rifles on the Rare Winchesters site every SRC has the front sight integral to the forward barrel band!!! http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1866/model_66.shtml
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Front sights on ’66 carbines in this serial range are on the barrel, not the front band.
win4575 said
Front sights on ’66 carbines in this serial range are on the barrel, not the front band.
I wondered if it might have changed. This rifle is a little later than the ones on Rare.
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Shrapnel said
The serial number is 162161 and it is on the bottom tang which is integral with the receiver where the saddle ring is. I can’t imagine it wouldn’t letter. The wood is nice, I took the butt plate off and the wood work under the butt plate certainly looks factory. It even has the cleaning kit in the butt…
I meant is it in the range that Cody has records for. Not all records for the 66’s exist.
Huck Riley said
I’ve never seen a knot in the wood on a stock before. Interesting, and glossy.The engraving does not look factory to me.
twobit said
One other BIG problem is the front sight. If you look at he 1866 rifles on the Rare Winchesters site every SRC has the front sight integral to the forward barrel band!!! http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1866/model_66.shtmlMichael
twobit said
If you open each image of the assembly numbers in a new window and then compare the style of each digit you will find that they do not match. Look at the base of the 2’s in each. The 8 is upside down on the wood. And the 3’s also look different to me. There is more closer on the 3 in the stamp on the tang.Michael
It takes all kinds to decipher what a 145 year old gun looks like. I bought it as is and that is how I will keep it. If it has been altered, it was a long time ago.
There also seems to be the conception that an engraved gun is only engraved if the factory did it. I know the only thing more scarce than an engraved 1866 is an unengraved 1866, but this one is engraved. Whether or not it is factory doesn’t change that it is engraved. The engraving is of that era and again, this carbine is a 1866 carbine with the right barrel and sights.
The wood to metal fit is perfect and whether the assembly numbers appear right, they were all hand stamped one digit at a time. They did not have a new set of number punches for every gun they made.
Counterfeiting isn’t new, but I doubt this has been counterfeited for the sake of trying to inflate the value of the gun. Even on this site, there is uncertainty of what is correct on many different guns, this one is no exception. But if you look at the overall gun and how it has survived, I will accept it as it is. When I got it, the wood just didn’t look right, but it did fit perfectly, so I got it anyway.
This is a nice survivor and the bore is bright and I believe it will be shootable once the correct chambering is found out.
Shrapnel, the number one rule of collecting is to collect what you like. I don’t believe that any of the posters meant any ill will. A lot of guns were engraved outside of the factory. It is a fact that Factory engraved guns will bring a big premium and there are a lot of dishonest dealers out there.
Chuck said
Shrapnel, the number one rule of collecting is to collect what you like. I don’t believe that any of the posters meant any ill will. A lot of guns were engraved outside of the factory. It is a fact that Factory engraved guns will bring a big premium and there are a lot of dishonest dealers out there.
Believe me, I understand, but you can see where one analysis was already disproved by another. As I stated, I didn’t buy it thinking it is a factory engraved gun, but the need to point that out from the gallery seems to prevail whether it is ill will or not. I am a big boy and have a few old guns. All of them are guns I bought because I like them, this is no exception.
Once the gun is carefully studied, it is evident that it is in real good shape for it’s age. What the stock is and the engraving as well doesn’t make this an undesirable gun…
I read the original post and seen you were not looking for a critique or value of your gun so I respected that.
Here is a reprint of a 1866 features and timeline for changes I posted on here a couple of years ago so here it is again.
Bob
Here is a check list of features on the 66 so you can determine is the gun is all from the same era. This came from a collector who uses this to double check a gun before buying. He compiled it from several books and personal experience. Some number ranges will over lap or have gaps since it was compiled from different sources. I give no guarantee to the accuracy of any information.
Serial numbers begin at 12,000. 1st models 12,000 to 19,000 – 2nd models 19,000 to 25,000 – 3rd models 25,000 to 149,000 and 4th model 149,000 to 170,000 these numbers are approximate. 1st models have a extra wood screw on the top tang behind the hammer. The serial number is on the top of the stock & left side of the lower tang. From 19,000 to 139,000 the serial number is on the bottom of the tang behind the trigger and after that the serial number is at the rear of the tang in a script style. Below serial number 20,000 the butt plate has the complete serial number on it usually. 23,000 to 60,000 the butt plate 4 of the digits and after 60,000 they have only 3 digits. After 150,000 the use of assemble numbers started instead of serial numbers. Before 16,000 they had a small font assemble number on the side of the tang forward of the serial number and one each side plate and the top part of the frame under the left side plate. Butt plates were of the crescent type below 100,000 for rifles and carbines. From 102,000 to 160,000 carbines mostly had the carbine style. After 160,000 the carbines went to the steel carbine butt plate.
Forearms on 1st models are the same width as the receiver. 1st and 2nd model carbine have a forends 1/2″ shorter. Below 15,000 the frame and forearm wood were the same width (flat side) and after the receiver was flared out. The forearm caps are brass on rifles up to 135,000.
All 1st and early 2nd models do not have a 1/2 cock on the hammer. The hammer knurling has a boarder after 165,000. Levers have a smaller loop before 100,000 and mixed to 120,000. The loading gate on the early guns below 15,000 was flat. Bolts below 35,000 do not have a oil slot on the extractor. From 35,000 to 43,000 there is a mix of bolts with slots and without and the slot will be a straight cut across the bolt up to 128,000. After 128,000 the slot was changed to a oval milled on the top. The front top opening of the receiver on the the first 102,000 is straight and after that there was a notch added.
The magazine cap is threaded into the tube until 155,000. Below 102,000 the chamber is recessed for the rim of the shell. The caliber was marked on the barrel on some starting around 156,000 and by 166,000 they all were. You can have 5 or 6 land rifling to 70,000 then 5 land to 154,000 then it went to 6 land to the end. The rear barrel sight on a carbine is marked 3 & 5 up to 155,000. The front sight on a carbine is part of the front barrel band until 152,000.
Between 167,000 and 169,000 one thousand C.F. guns were sent to Brazil.
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks for your assistance, that is more helpful. I don’t know much about 1866’s but I do know this one is very late. It matches the description of the later guns in your information. The stock, although shiny with much figure in it, is dimensionally correct and inside milling is that of a factory and not a handmade or other replacement. The bore is bright and mechanically it is tight and serviceable. I am on my way to Mike Ventuino’s house right now to see if we can get some brass to fit this gun…
Is it a rim fire or center fire?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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