Brooksy said

It’s something like 72,000 and made in 1911, which is I believe past what the ledger records show. If you want the exact serial # I’ll go dig it out of the safe and report back.  

Brooksy – 

You are correct – that serial number range would not have records which would provide details such as barrel length.  For that type information, the ledgers at Cody on the M1895 run from serial #1 to 59,999.

This does impact the value.  For something that may well be, “one of a kind” many collectors want authentication.  This is particularly true for short rifles.  Simply, because they may have been shortened.  At the other end, barrels longer than original length are less suspect.  

steve004 said
I agree, based on the photos I have seen, it looks correct.  I was just referring to the general phenomenon of many collectors being, “letter focused.”  It also can pivot on who you are collecting for.  Many buyer’s have resale in mind.  If not short-term, they are thinking about what happens when it comes time to sell.  If I buy something and think it is right as rain, my opinion may not be enough authentication for a prospective buyer.  And often, the prospective buyer is thinking about the next buyer.  A museum letter can take a lot of anxiety and doubt out of the equation – which helps many collectors feel better about reaching deeper in their pockets.   

Very true Steve.  Especially for those collectors for whom resale value is a primary focus, a lack of ironclad documentation will influence the price they’re willing to pay.    

Brooksy said
If it is cut down , who ever did it went through great pains to make it look factory, then sell it cheap. All the patina you would expect to see on a 100 year old gun is there. 

 

Brooksy,

I believe that the barrel is probably correct and original and that it wasn’t modified in recent times with the intent to deceive.  No offense, but if it’s modified, the more likely scenario is that it was done correctly by a professional gunsmith 100 years ago who would have properly cut down the barrel, removed the front sight base and properly soldered it back on in the correct position.  Correctly removing and resoldering a sight base is a delicate, but not particularly difficult process that I’ve done myself.  Although it usually requires refinishing the barrel, a gunsmith can do the job with no damage to the finish if the proper precautions are followed.  Even if this were done and the barrel properly refinished 100 years ago, the patina would likely still look correct today.

Thus, the need for authentication by an expert familiar with this process who can also identify if the machining of the muzzle is consistent with Winchester’s work.  The average collector isn’t equipped to evaluate these issues with a degree of certainty required by most serious buyers.

The most telling sign on your rifle may be the barrel profile itself.  I have owned many 1895 short rifles (and still own a few) in 30-40 Krag.  The short rifles in this caliber have subtle differences in the barrel profile from a standard 28″ barrel that has simply been cut down.  I haven’t had the opportunity to compare the barrel profile of one of the larger caliber 1895 short rifles with a standard 24″ barrel of the same caliber, but I would expect them to have a slightly different profile as well.

While I believe your rifle is likely correct, I too would want to be able to personally evaluate any firearms with rare options or know that it had passed an in-person evaluation by a trusted expert.  On the flip side, I think many people trust the authenticity of guns with factory letters far too much.  There are more than a few “high end” guns out there that have been altered at some point and then modified again to match the letter.  And then there are the actual fakes that have both bogus serial numbers and options specifically built to match the factory records of a rare or highly optioned firearm.  Factory letters are by no means the “final word” in the authentication of a rare firearm.  There’s no substitute for due diligence, a lesson I learned the hard way in my early days of collecting.

The safest course of action is to have any rare firearm authenticated by a highly trusted expert whenever possible, whether it has a factory letter or not. Mark

Mark Douglas said

Brooksy said
If it is cut down , who ever did it went through great pains to make it look factory, then sell it cheap. All the patina you would expect to see on a 100 year old gun is there. 

 

Brooksy,

I believe that the barrel is probably correct and original and that it wasn’t modified in recent times with the intent to deceive.  No offense, but if it’s modified, the more likely scenario is that it was done correctly by a professional gunsmith 100 years ago who would have properly cut down the barrel, removed the front sight base and properly soldered it back on in the correct position.  Correctly removing and resoldering a sight base is a delicate, but not particularly difficult process that I’ve done myself.  Although it usually requires refinishing the barrel, a gunsmith can do the job with no damage to the finish if the proper precautions are followed.  Even if this were done and the barrel properly refinished 100 years ago, the patina would likely still look correct today.

Thus, the need for authentication by an expert familiar with this process who can also identify if the machining of the muzzle is consistent with Winchester’s work.  The average collector isn’t equipped to evaluate these issues with a degree of certainty required by most serious buyers.

The most telling sign on your rifle may be the barrel profile itself.  I have owned many 1895 short rifles (and still own a few) in 30-40 Krag.  The short rifles in this caliber have subtle differences in the barrel profile from a standard 28″ barrel that has simply been cut down.  I haven’t had the opportunity to compare the barrel profile of one of the larger caliber 1895 short rifles with a standard 24″ barrel of the same caliber, but I would expect them to have a slightly different profile as well.

While I believe your rifle is likely correct, I too would want to be able to personally evaluate any firearms with rare options or know that it had passed an in-person evaluation by a trusted expert.  On the flip side, I think many people trust the authenticity of guns with factory letters far too much.  There are more than a few “high end” guns out there that have been altered at some point and then modified again to match the letter.  And then there are the actual fakes that have both bogus serial numbers and options specifically built to match the factory records of a rare or highly optioned firearm.  Factory letters are by no means the “final word” in the authentication of a rare firearm.  There’s no substitute for due diligence, a lesson I learned the hard way in my early days of collecting.

The safest course of action is to have any rare firearm authenticated by a highly trusted expert whenever possible, whether it has a factory letter or not. Mark  

This continues to be an illuminating discussion.  I’ve reflected on it quite a bit.  I think we are so cautious because deception has been, and is, rampant in our field.  And many other field as well.  Basically, wherever there is money to be made.  Mark makes a great point – even factory letters are not the final word.  A faked up rifle made from a restamped donor receiver can, “letter” 100%.  Museum letters can be faked as well. 

For some collectors, establishing the authenticity of a rifle to their satisfaction is enough.  Some collectors never intend to sell their rifle and figure their heirs can sort it out however they want.  Conversely, as I stated earlier, many collectors have ultimate resale in mind.  

I think having known experts provide an opinion on a piece works well for the scenario where the buyer is trying to establish authenticity to meet their satisfaction.  Because of pragmatics, it works far less well to establish the value for future buyers.  In fact, I have often seen guns advertised where they mentioned they showed it to this person or that person and they said it was correct.  Sometimes I know who they are referring to and sometimes I don’t.  Rarely is there any sort of letter involved.  This is because usually the person rendering the opinion is not in the business of doing so.  An example is John Kopec with Colt revolvers.  He has an authentication business and will provide you with a letter outlining his opinion.  And, I assume he keeps a record of guns he has had evaluated so a letter from him could be verified.  

It’s interesting to me what the, “final word” means to different people.  I have been amused over the years to have encountered many collectors (or at least buyers) of Winchesters who have believed that any rifle pictured in one of George Madis’ books is authentic – simply by virtue appearing in his book.

Brooksy said
Ok, thanks all for the help. I’m surprised but not offended by the controversy over the 20″ barrel. I really had no idea that there would be so much doubt about the configuration.  With the sight set up it really makes it the ideal hotrod hunting rifle for saddle carry out west. I’ll try and get some better pictures than I have, I have a new camera now if I can figure out how it works.

Btw, I know you guys don’t know me. I have made a full time living stocking custom flintlock muzzleloading rifles since 1996, nearly 400 of them at this point. Google Mike Brooks flintlocks and you’ll see my stuff all over the webs. You’ll see my work in the movie “The Patriot” and PBS came out and filmed a 1/2 hour segment for their series “A Craftsman’s Legacy”. I also am close to RIACO and get to handle all the Winchesters that come through there which does give me some experience. I even worked there as a description writer in a time long ago. So, I do have some idea what I’m looking at when it comes to assessing antique guns. But, first and foremost I’m am not offended by by everyone’s expertise and comments and willingness to share information, I have learned quite a bit.

Mike  

Mike –

It’s good to hear you are not offended by the raw analysis we generally provide.  I enjoyed hearing more about your history with firearms. It’s sounds like an interesting life you have had.

The good news is most of us, based on the photos and history you have provided, have the impression that your rifle is correct.  For me, I think what would lock in my opinion would be pursuing Mark’s suggestion – more investigation of the barrel profile.  It would be illuminating to lay a standard 24-inch barreled .35 WCF next to yours and compare he barrel profile.  Another possibility – maybe someone here has a 24 inch barreled .35 and they could take barrel diameter measurements at several points – such as immediately forward of receiver, 4 inches forward, 10 inches, etc.  As Mark suggests, I would not expect the measurements to be identical.

Brooksy said
Ok, thanks all for the help. I’m surprised but not offended by the controversy over the 20″ barrel. I really had no idea that there would be so much doubt about the configuration.  With the sight set up it really makes it the ideal hotrod hunting rifle for saddle carry out west. I’ll try and get some better pictures than I have, I have a new camera now if I can figure out how it works.

Btw, I know you guys don’t know me. I have made a full time living stocking custom flintlock muzzleloading rifles since 1996, nearly 400 of them at this point. Google Mike Brooks flintlocks and you’ll see my stuff all over the webs. You’ll see my work in the movie “The Patriot” and PBS came out and filmed a 1/2 hour segment for their series “A Craftsman’s Legacy”. I also am close to RIACO and get to handle all the Winchesters that come through there which does give me some experience. I even worked there as a description writer in a time long ago. So, I do have some idea what I’m looking at when it comes to assessing antique guns. But, first and foremost I’m am not offended by by everyone’s expertise and comments and willingness to share information, I have learned quite a bit.

Mike  

Nothing to add to the immediate discussion, but just wanted to say I recently watched that episode of “A Craftsman’s Legacy” and enjoyed it very much. A TV Star in our midst!

Steve