Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
1885 high wall 22 LR
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 32
Member Since:
August 16, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
March 24, 2024 - 2:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Buying something by verbal description only. No picture taking available. Met with man doing poorly at a gun show.  One of the items he has is an 1885 high wall. Musket. Take down.

S/N:  110xxx 1911ish. Winchester B4 scope with Win. mounts pat. dated 1907

28″ barrel. 1 barrel band.  1″ disc tang sight.  What he calls an eagle wing front sight.

No rear dovetail cut for a sight. Factory sling swivels.

Flaking receiver 40-50%. Barrel 90% ish. He insists it is not a Winder.

I have the big Madis book, Campbell 2 book and the Red book. I  still don’t know enough.

Is this an odd piece? I have not seen it and he can’t do pictures. It is a 2 1/2 hour drive.

$4200. price tag. Any opinions?  I  know pictures would be wonderful.  

He also has 2 boxes of 22 extra long ammo. I have never seen any but I have a kids rifle that has that stamped on the barrel. No idea what that is worth.

The smart thing to would be to go take the pics myself and then post them here but time is a factor.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6522
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
2
March 24, 2024 - 2:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

I wouldn’t say he’s giving it away, but seems interesting.  Winders are a special category of muskets, but muskets could be ordered in most calibers before the appearance of Winders in 1905, which were .22 S or LR only.  TD Winders could be ordered, but are scarce.  Was there a rear sight removed to mount scope, or was the tang sight the original sight, & is it a factory sight like a mid-range vernier?  (Winders would have had a military style ladder-sight, by 1911, the M1901 Krag.)   If by “eagle-wing” front sight, he means a factory globe sight, that would be very special indeed!   B4s are scarcer than A5s (production ended 1918), but not as good optically, worth maybe about $800 if perfect cond.  If there was good evidence scope was factory-mounted, it would add much to value.   Think you should ask him if brl has screw holes indicating previous rear sight; if so, that would detract from value, if not, add to it.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5190
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
March 24, 2024 - 4:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I’d take the drive. No telling what else he may have when you get there. 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
March 24, 2024 - 4:51 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

The serial number indicates late 1910 or early 1911 production, which would make it a late production 1st variation Winder Musket, or an early 2nd variation Winder Musket.  The vast majority of the 1st and 2nd variation Winder Muskets were chambered for the 22 Long Rifle (marked “22 LONG. R.”).  It is remotely possible that one could have been ordered in 22 Extra Long or 22 WRF (I have found a handful in the latter cartridge).

Take Down Winder Muskets are actually common, especially in the 2nd variation.  Thus far, I have documented (279) Take Down Winder Muskets in my ongoing research survey.

Neither the 1st or 2nd variation Winder Muskets have dovetail cuts for a front or rear sight.  The barrels were drilled & tapped for a Hotchkiss or a Krag Model 1901 rear sight.  The front sights on the 1st variation were the post style w/pinned blade.  The 2nd variation front sight was a silver-soldered short ramp with a dovetail cut into it.  There were a substantial number of Winder Muskets that were factory equipped with a Winchester B3, B4, B5, or A5 telescope.

If the B4 Telescope and mounts are original and in nice condition, it certainly adds a fair amount of value to the Winder Musket.  However, without actually seeing detailed pictures of gun, I am not inclined to believe that it is worth $4,200.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 32
Member Since:
August 16, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
March 24, 2024 - 7:42 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

image.jpgImage Enlargerimage-1.jpgImage Enlargerimage-2.jpgImage Enlargerimage-3.jpgImage Enlargerimage-4.jpgImage Enlargerimage-5.jpgImage Enlargerimage-6.jpgImage Enlargerimage-7.jpgImage Enlargerimage-8.jpgImage Enlargerimage-9.jpgImage Enlargerimage-10.jpgImage Enlargerimage-11.jpgImage Enlargerhis 75 year old girl friend was able to make photos

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
March 24, 2024 - 7:59 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

It is a 2nd variation Winder Musket.  The pictures do not provide enough detail to determine if the B4 Telescope is factory installed.  I can tell you that the Lyman No. 103 tang sight is not factory original, and to mount it, somebody drilled & tapped and extra hole in the upper tang.  That alone significantly reduces the value in the collector market.  The front sight is a standard Winchester Glode sight… it too is not factory original.  Why the Globe front sight and Lyman tang sight are on that gun is very questionable in light of the B4 Telescope.

The scope and sights are worth approximately $1,800 (if sold separately), and the high-wall Take Down action is worth approximately $1,500. If you were to strip that Winder Musket down to parts, it might be worth $4,200.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1773
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
March 24, 2024 - 8:00 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

You can get a lot of Winchester 1885 for $4200.  I don’t believe this is one of those.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
March 24, 2024 - 8:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Forgot to mention… it was manufactured March 16th, 1911.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 32
Member Since:
August 16, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
March 24, 2024 - 8:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I kind of had to remember how to send pictures. I may detect a plugged hole on top the barrel. Thanks to y’all that responded. So this must be a Winder??? Yes the price seems to be right up there. There is a top of the scope pic with Pat date info. 

Another man has real nice 1873 mod. In 44wcf that I am on the fence about.  I haven’t posted those yet but I had the piece in my hands at last week’s gun show. 

That one is not cheap either.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
March 24, 2024 - 8:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hardhat DV2 said
I kind of had to remember how to send pictures. I may detect a plugged hole on top the barrel. Thanks to y’all that responded. So this must be a Winder??? Yes the price seems to be right up there. There is a top of the scope pic with Pat date info. 

Another man has real nice 1873 mod. In 44wcf that I am on the fence about.  I haven’t posted those yet but I had the piece in my hands at last week’s gun show. 

That one is not cheap either.

  

Yes, it most definitely is a Winder Musket (2nd variation).  It originally was drilled and tapped for a Krag Model 1901 Wind Gauge rear sight.  The attached picture shows a top view of the sight that Winchester installed on the 2nd variation Winder Muskets.  Take note of the position (location) of the Winchester proof mark on the barrel.  The second picture shows a factory original 2nd variation Take Down Winder Musket.

Bert

 

Krag-Model-1901-Wd-Ga-sight.jpgImage Enlarger109565-HW-2nd-TD-WM.jpgImage Enlarger

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 32
Member Since:
August 16, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
March 25, 2024 - 1:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thank you for for the insight and advice. It tempered my sense of urgency to spend. I did note the 3rd visible hole in the tang. Bert’s comment about the proof mark was something I missed.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6522
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
12
March 25, 2024 - 1:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hardhat DV2 said
 I did note the 3rd visible hole in the tang.  

Could be used to negotiate a more reasonable price IF you like the gun, which should be a good shooter with the scope.  Sell the 103 (looks like Marlin/Ballard hole spacing, maybe $400), replace it with a correct sight, & the “3rd hole” disappears.  Front sight would be easy to sell on ebay. 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6522
TXGunNut: 5190
Chuck: 4669
steve004: 4344
1873man: 4330
Big Larry: 2359
twobit: 2323
mrcvs: 1773
TR: 1731
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12926
Posts: 112694

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1791
Members: 8935
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation