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Winchester 1894 3 leaf express sights seized
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February 29, 2024 - 5:56 pm
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Daniel-

Have you tried Kroil or another good penetrating oil?

 

Mike

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February 29, 2024 - 11:26 pm
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TXGunNut said
Have you tried Kroil or another good penetrating oil? 

That plus heat plus time–a week or more; leaves break quite easily if you force them.

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March 1, 2024 - 11:09 am
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I agree with the members here as that rifle deserves the proper sights to be put on it. Like Bob mentioned adding that piece of steel under the main leaf adds pressure in other wrong places and makes it harder to remove as understanding the concept of the machined dovetail is very important working on these. Besides the fact that their could be damage done to the sight as Bob was again referring to. I also agree with Clarence and Mike as Kroil will due the trick being patient and a very small rubber faced mallet/hammer specifically for sights using a gentle tap on top of the sight with a small wooden dowel to eliminate marring works very well before a soft brass drift is used to knock out the sight at the base in the right direction as the dovetail is a machined tapered dovetail and direction is important. Small Taps with a wood dowel vs. a Brass drift and sharp heavy pops at first are sometimes required. Many members here give advice based on experience and not to offend people looking for advice as most of us are getting along in years and have learned from some of our mistakes. ConfusedAs a guest we welcome you and are here to help. Smile

Good Luck!

Anthony

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March 1, 2024 - 4:16 pm
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clarence said

TXGunNut said

Have you tried Kroil or another good penetrating oil? 

That plus heat plus time–a week or more; leaves break quite easily if you force them.

  

Yes, patience! I had a hard time learning that important lesson so it’s probably a good thing my early shooting and maintenance career involved modern guns. I keep a few of my mistakes around to remind me. If things aren’t going well, stop, put your tools down and walk away. Give the Kroil and your mind time to work it out.

 

Mike

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March 1, 2024 - 5:55 pm
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No idea what the current status of the rear sight under discussion in this thread is, but if that piece of metal is still under the sight would think that it would restrict or prevent the movement of the individual ‘leafs’

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March 1, 2024 - 6:59 pm
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Tedk said
No idea what the current status of the rear sight under discussion in this thread is, but if that piece of metal is still under the sight would think that it would restrict or prevent the movement of the individual ‘leafs’ 

Just noticed–original question was asked 6 YEARS ago!  And he’s STILL messing with it?  Something here doesn’t add up.

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March 1, 2024 - 7:59 pm
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I have a stuck sight that I have been messing with for at least 5 years.  I work on it from time to time then give up.  Believe me I’ve tried everything all of you have suggested.  My last resort is to cut the sight enough to work it out. The sight is a period correct clover leaf sight on a 66, just the clover leaf.  I don’t have a real Henry or 66 ladder sight so I haven’t been in a real hurry.  I do have 2 repo sights. 

Winchester-1866-Sight.jpgImage Enlarger

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March 1, 2024 - 9:57 pm
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Chuck said
I have a stuck sight that I have been messing with for at least 5 years.  I work on it from time to time then give up.  Believe me I’ve tried everything all of you have suggested.  My last resort is to cut the sight enough to work it out. The sight is a period correct clover leaf sight on a 66, just the clover leaf.  I don’t have a real Henry or 66 ladder sight so I haven’t been in a real hurry.  I do have 2 repo sights. 

I always wanted a Williams sight-pusher, until someone said he had one, but that, for reasons I don’t remember, it was hard to use, & he couldn’t recommend it.  However, for such a valuable piece as this, it might be worth buying, if you’re truly determined to change that sight.  This is as cheap as they go for:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134953833770?itmmeta=01HQXZTWD63N053WFP3EG2F812&hash=item1f6be0152a:g:lPYAAOSwfYhl3Oxl&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Ab8RRMotTwWO9xid%2F5olHWMfrygFiBqneR3Fvw8zOhRKjvqMBlp7wa3bdIwH29MKJpiu4yKmr1zVjGKDf3ngsFOpVlbckAlcoosfNXnRyc91J1moLEEmxFBwQlqRtLm%2BYZeeUIN1Q1ZGkcXn%2FRWQxDtzbjHwrSWPjUw%2FdRle5Sz%2BG4EwubJLXWOMDTQZAigD%2FObpOK%2FUAn0QAyaGAAAv2fM4ZMT56YS7WZko43Hcn1Y8Px6pd0im9hMpaJ3zgNdSAYuyWtcpseB5UQdoHiukkE%2FGcXmAeYPD3mM1OYFo1h%2F%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9jG67-_Yw 

It’s made for front sights, so would have to be modified to work on a rear sight, but there ought to be a way to adapt it by someone with machine tool savvy. 

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March 2, 2024 - 3:19 am
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IIRC sight pushers like the one shown work well on pistol slides, a round rifle barrel may require additional clamping. Probably a good way to apply an effective amount of pushing force in a safe manner if you can set it up correctly.

 

Mike

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March 22, 2024 - 2:32 am
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clarence said

Tedk said

No idea what the current status of the rear sight under discussion in this thread is, but if that piece of metal is still under the sight would think that it would restrict or prevent the movement of the individual ‘leafs’ 

Just noticed–original question was asked 6 YEARS ago!  And he’s STILL messing with it?  Something here doesn’t add up.

  

Sorry I couldn’t figure out how to create a new post or reply without a membership and no longer seem to get notifications for the site. I have removed the sights and everything is well but clearly the front sight doesn’t seem to work with the rears and I was just wondering if anyone knew a correct front sight to get for it to work with the 3 leaf. 

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March 22, 2024 - 3:11 am
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Daniel F said Sorry I couldn’t figure out how to create a new post or reply without a membership and no longer seem to get notifications for the site. I have removed the sights and everything is well but clearly the front sight doesn’t seem to work with the rears and I was just wondering if anyone knew a correct front sight to get for it to work with the 3 leaf.  

If it’s shooting too high with present front sight, then get a replacement with a HIGHER bead or post–doesn’t have to be any specific sight, whatever you can find, there’s a million to choose from.  If it’s shooting too low, get a LOWER bead or post.  

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March 22, 2024 - 5:53 pm
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The original poster is getting a lot of good input and advice.  Initially, when I first read the topic title, that a sight was “seized,” my initial reaction was, by who? Some sort of law enforcement authority?

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March 23, 2024 - 4:04 am
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clarence said

Daniel F said Sorry I couldn’t figure out how to create a new post or reply without a membership and no longer seem to get notifications for the site. I have removed the sights and everything is well but clearly the front sight doesn’t seem to work with the rears and I was just wondering if anyone knew a correct front sight to get for it to work with the 3 leaf.  

If it’s shooting too high with present front sight, then get a replacement with a HIGHER bead or post–doesn’t have to be any specific sight, whatever you can find, there’s a million to choose from.  If it’s shooting too low, get a LOWER bead or post.  

  

Problem is I’m not interested in buying multiple sights. Very few places to buy sights give measurements. Was hoping someone knew the original front and rear sight combos these came with, including sight model number and brand. Someone’s gotta know. I got a new front sight once already and the pin hole is too high up with not enough metal underneath and it’s loose.

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March 23, 2024 - 4:05 am
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steve004 said
The original poster is getting a lot of good input and advice.  Initially, when I first read the topic title, that a sight was “seized,” my initial reaction was, by who? Some sort of law enforcement authority?

  

Yeah the ATF seized my rear sight said it was too nice for me to own and I needed to share it with them.

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March 23, 2024 - 2:41 pm
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Yeah, I have mental images of some of our statements at times.  Like “I want to date my…….”.  I first think of “buy flowers”, but then recall my mother in law saying “liquor is quicker!”  The vagaries of our language!Laugh  Tim!

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March 23, 2024 - 8:07 pm
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Daniel-

I know there is FAR GREATER expertise on lever gun sights here than I possess, and what I’m going to post will probably prove unhelpful.  BUT…

Pauline Muerrle published a reprint of a 1917 Winchester factory document giving standard sight applications and dimensional drawings by Model/Caliber.  Unfortunately, the 3-leaf Express sights (#34A/B/C/D) were apparently not “standard” equipment on M94 carbines, so do not show in the Table (below) of standard sights for the Model 94 rifles/carbines in 1917 chambered for 25-35 WCF.

Standard-Sights-M94-25-35.pngImage Enlarger

According to this, the regular front sight on a M94 carbine was the #61A, which was 0.374″ tall.

Carbine-Front-61A.pngImage Enlarger

However the standard rear sight on the M94 carbine was the #44A, and the drawing (here or in Madis’ sight book) is not dimensioned so doesn’t give the height of the lowest sight setting.

Carbine-Rear-44A.pngImage Enlarger

As you and others have pointed out, the Madis book lists the 3-leaf sight #34C as appropriate for M94 rifles AND carbines chambered for 25-35 WCF (and other calibers).  However, he does not say whether the #61A front sight would pair with a #34C as it “should” with a #44A.   

Do you know which 3-leaf sight is on your carbine?  The leaf heights of the #34C (also 34D) are 0.286″, 0.320″ and 0.380″ (according to the dimensional drawings in Madis book and the Muerrle reprint).  For reference, the #34A leaf heights were 0.286″, 0.320″ and 0.362″, while those of the 34B were 0.286″, 0.320″ and 0.401″.  So best guess would be that, assuming the #34 sight on your carbine was put there by Winchester, it would be a #34C/D, but it’s probably worth checking.

Now… If we only knew the leaf height of the #44A ladder sight in it’s lowest position, I suppose it would be possible to make an educated guess about whether the 3-leaf sight (with a 0.286″ lowest leaf) would pair with the 0.374″ tall #61A blade front that was “standard” on 25-35 WCF M94 carbines.  This is where I fall short… I don’t own a single Winchester lever gun, let alone a pre-1930 M94 carbine… Frown

Of course I could be COMPLETELY wrong about all of this.  I’m just repeating what the “books say”…

Hope some bit of this ramble helps…  My head hurts and I think I’ll go lie down… Laugh

Lou

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March 23, 2024 - 8:43 pm
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Louis Luttrell said
My head hurts and I think I’ll go lie down… Laugh 

Mine hurts with reading all those decimal measurements.   Finding a front sight blade that coordinates exactly with the range markings on the rear sight would be worth the effort if game animals could be counted on to present themselves at known ranges, but as most shots are taken at a “best guess” estimate, a blade that’s reasonably “close” seems good enough to me.  I’d rank blade visibility more important.

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March 23, 2024 - 9:51 pm
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Several years back I accumulated an assortment of modern Lyman dovetail front sights of varying heights and bead diameters. I’m thinking maybe you have the ramp type sight and just need a blade insert. You wouldn’t be the first to make one from a silver dime or even cartridge brass. 

 

Mike

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March 25, 2024 - 3:43 am
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Louis Luttrell said
Daniel-

I know there is FAR GREATER expertise on lever gun sights here than I possess, and what I’m going to post will probably prove unhelpful.  BUT…

Pauline Muerrle published a reprint of a 1917 Winchester factory document giving standard sight applications and dimensional drawings by Model/Caliber.  Unfortunately, the 3-leaf Express sights (#34A/B/C/D) were apparently not “standard” equipment on M94 carbines, so do not show in the Table (below) of standard sights for the Model 94 rifles/carbines in 1917 chambered for 25-35 WCF.

Standard-Sights-M94-25-35.pngImage Enlarger

According to this, the regular front sight on a M94 carbine was the #61A, which was 0.374″ tall.

Carbine-Front-61A.pngImage Enlarger

However the standard rear sight on the M94 carbine was the #44A, and the drawing (here or in Madis’ sight book) is not dimensioned so doesn’t give the height of the lowest sight setting.

Carbine-Rear-44A.pngImage Enlarger

As you and others have pointed out, the Madis book lists the 3-leaf sight #34C as appropriate for M94 rifles AND carbines chambered for 25-35 WCF (and other calibers).  However, he does not say whether the #61A front sight would pair with a #34C as it “should” with a #44A.   

Do you know which 3-leaf sight is on your carbine?  The leaf heights of the #34C (also 34D) are 0.286″, 0.320″ and 0.380″ (according to the dimensional drawings in Madis book and the Muerrle reprint).  For reference, the #34A leaf heights were 0.286″, 0.320″ and 0.362″, while those of the 34B were 0.286″, 0.320″ and 0.401″.  So best guess would be that, assuming the #34 sight on your carbine was put there by Winchester, it would be a #34C/D, but it’s probably worth checking.

Now… If we only knew the leaf height of the #44A ladder sight in it’s lowest position, I suppose it would be possible to make an educated guess about whether the 3-leaf sight (with a 0.286″ lowest leaf) would pair with the 0.374″ tall #61A blade front that was “standard” on 25-35 WCF M94 carbines.  This is where I fall short… I don’t own a single Winchester lever gun, let alone a pre-1930 M94 carbine… Frown

Of course I could be COMPLETELY wrong about all of this.  I’m just repeating what the “books say”…

Hope some bit of this ramble helps…  My head hurts and I think I’ll go lie down… Laugh

Lou

  

I’m assuming it’s a 34c no lining in the grooves and 50,1,2. Thanks for the info I’ll look into that front sight compared to the one I got.

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