To restore a collectible Winchester or not?|Page 3|Restoration, Repair and Maintenance|Forum|Winchester Collector

Zeb-

I think you ought to crack open a can of Swiss FFg to celebrate.

Mike

Chuck said
I’ve said many times the first rule of collecting is to collect what you like.  But, these guns will live on way past any of us.  I just hate to see them ruined for future generations.  Yes when you own it you can do what you like, but we will only own them for a short time.  Once modified they can’t go back. 
  

I agree with this.  In fact, I’ve done that for the past 50+ years.  I do have one caution.  Collect what you like but keep your expectations in check.  Just because you think your acquisition is super cool, it doesn’t mean others will  (i.e. people who you would like to ultimately sell it to). And, just because others might think what you have is cool, interesting, etc., it doesn’t mean they want to own it.  A personal example is my Standard .50 caliber Camp Rifle.  I have one and I’m very glad that I have only one.  I learned about this very rare rifle a long time ago – before the internet.  It took me years to even find a photo of one and when I finally acquired mine, it was the first one I had ever held in my hands.  I’ve sold it to quite a few collectors.  Everyone does find it of interest, unusual, etc. but I’ve yet to have anyone say anything to the effect, “when it comes time to sell, let me know.”  

Ian, from Forgotten Weapons, does a fine video on the Camp .50.  He discusses rarity (only about 25 ever made) but also states, “… these are extremely rare guns … their rarity is only matched by the rarity of the people that are particularly interested in them… this is like the definition of the forgotten weapons company.”  I’ve also owned a Standard Arms Model G (pump/semi-auto) in .35 Remington.  I thought the idea of a combination pump/semi-auto made shortly after the turn of the last century was pretty cool.  People aren’t climbing over each other to buy these either – but most do agree they are cool.  They had a terrible reputation for reliability but the one I had ticked off the rounds pretty darn slick.

The moral of my story is:  BUY WINCHESTERS!  I don’t regret owning my Camp .50 but I’m glad I don’t have a safe full of them.  I suspect my heirs will be grateful for this as well.

It’s not a bad thing to buy what other people like too!

I wonder if MVA would have a knurled screw to fit my Sharps?

Yes, most shotguns in England get reblued.  They like pretty.

OK, this is a little off base.  When I was in Junior High school one of the nicest looking teachers would get picked up each afternoon and try to get into a 300 Gullwing.  A few of us would set and watch her try every day. 

Zebulon said

The knurled screw I ordered replaces the slotted head screw that secures the upper part of MVA’s several Soule tang sights to their bases. A number of BPCR competitors prefer to remove the staff and store it separately from the rifle while travelng.
To answer your question, it would depend on who made your sight. If it is an original Sharps, I doubt it. 
  

The sight base is an original Sharps.  The staff is from a Maynard.  The current screw is slotted not knurled as it should be. 

I think there are too many variables to saying a restored or repaired gun isn’t a collectible or is worth less than it was originally. For example- I have a Model 21. Really pristine and perfect. I had it for about twenty years. I shot it one time. It doubled on me. I put it back in the safe where it stayed for decades. I finally decided to have it engraved two years ago. I drove the gun up to Connecticut and dropped it off at a smith’s shop, so that he could dismantle it and send it to Pauline Muerrle. When she finished the gun, it went back to the Smith, he blued the gun. Repaired it from doubling. I drove back up and picked the gun up. I figure the gun was worth $5-6,000.00 before it was engraved. Now? probably worth twice that much. I believe if you check, some of the Winchester engravers- engraved guns on the side at their homes. Plus, the Smith was Mitch Schultz. They don’t get any better than that. The gun had to be reblued, since it had been engraved. Plus, when I got the paperwork from Dena Hollowell at the Cody Museum and she informed me when the gun was shipped, the date was the same day I was born. Sentimentality means a lot in some cases on how much money to put into a gun. Can you blame someone if they have their dad’s gun that is nothing but a wall hanger unless he has it repaired? People aren’t going to know the difference in the inner parts of a Model 12 after a gun has been “restored”……… Guys come to me and want their old gun’s worn out butt pad or buttplate replaced with a leather one. I install a leather covered KICK-EEZ  pad and when they pick up the gun, I give them the buttplate or the old original pad. As long as I haven’t had to grind the curved end of the stock, they can always make it “original” again. A new leather pad looks better and shoots better than an old Hawkins pad that is rotted and falling apart. So, I believe there are just too many differences of opinion about whether or not to put money into a gun and change it’s “originality”. But, that’s just my .02 worth. Take care.

James,  I agree with you and say let the free market decide what’s worth what. 

I take care of my stuff and don’t treat my guns like plumbing tools. I have no issue with shooting anything I own, although i own several I wouldn’t hunt with in bad weather. 

Now, having said that, I don’t have an investment in rare, ultra-high condition, historically important specimens that are worth several times my 2009 Tacoma. I don’t for two reasons: First, I can’t afford them. Second, I’d get bored just looking at them.  I’m happy for others to pursue them and I like to see and hear about them. But, like my grandchildren, I don’t mind when they go home. 

I like honest guns. If somebody tries to fool me into buying a grooved Winchester 61 that has been re-blued and swears on the bones of his father and his mother’s honor it’s factory original — and wants the market price for such things — he can go to hell and take his 61 with him. 

Conversely, I have a nicely reblued 62A ($600) that I dote on and have spent money to equip  with a new Marble’s tang sight, barrel slot blank, and big white bead up front. A collector of any experience could spot the reblue in a New York minute, but I don’t care. Yard pests fear it and 22 shorts with reason. 

I cheerfully disagree with my fellows who like to look at a derelict (28%) Winchester 73 or 92 and imagine all the places it’s been. I look at it and imagine it’s been in a busy sewer for too many years, for whatever reason. They are welcome to my share and please don’t bring it into my wife’s kitchen. 

The smart folks at Browning Arms who got Miroku to build new versions of JMB’s and TCJ’s best designs — and the even smarter ones at FN who bought Browning — are the subject for another conversation. But I have owned and enjoyed several and still do. Particularly an 1873 44 WCF half-octagon Sporting Rifle that will knock your eyes out and has no tang safety or rebounding hammer.

James, I think you’ve set out a couple of points of general agreement: 

First, that there is a material difference between repairing (restoring to mechanical functionality) a gun of collectible condition, on one hand, and restoring or “improving” its cosmetic condition – thereby destroying its originality – on the other. 

Second, that there is a point of no return, most typically because of a prior, egregious “restoration” but also because of corrosion and neglect, at which the gun has no “original condition” and can be used in whole or in part as a restoration of the same or another gun. 

I know it’s been said before, but this is an issue that collectors of any kind wrestle with. Auto enthusiasts have to deal with concourse restorations versus basket cases versus survivors. I’ve seen “survivors” that looked like they were just pulled out of a chicken coop. That type of vehicle certainly doesn’t appeal to me but there is a market for them.

Over the years, my collecting interest has gravitated towards pre-war / antique bolt action sporting rifles. I have a collection of very nice, well-maintained rifles that I shoot on a regularly at the range and in the field. I find it very gratifying to be able to use these rifles for their intended purpose.

My most recent project is the Winchester Hotchkiss 1883 rifle that I started a thread on. I was fortunate enough to stumble upon this rifle and purchase it. Because this rifle had functional issues, I felt it was necessary to have it re-barreled. I also felt that it was important to try to bring this rare rifle back to its original configuration. That’s why I sent it to Mark Douglas to have him work his magic on it.

I know that this rifle will never be as valuable as an unrestored original but, this is actually a better scenario for me. I intend to work up an accurate 45-70 load and take this old girl deer hunting later this year. I probably would be less inclined to do that if this was a pristine, unmolested original. I have no idea what refurbishing will do to the value of this firearm but in the end, I don’t really care. 

It would always be a restored gun to me, if I owned the gun I’d pass it off 

Zebulon said
What I think we are illuminating are two different branches of the same hobby, both legitimately called “collecting.” 
Branch 1 we will call the “Originalists” for lack of a better word. An originalist seeks, as an ideal, a collection of specimens in perfect original condition, each representing what it looked like as shipped from the factory, as closely as possible. The prototypical originalist cannot and does not shoot his collection because to do so would diminish condition. In instances where a gun lays unassembled, as new in its original box with original packing, he cannot risk assembling it. He derives pleasure from studying each of them in exquisite detail and delving into their histories. An originalist may or may not have a subordinate group of less-than-perfect firearms to shoot, reload for, hunt, etc. 
Branch 2 are the “Shooters.”  A shooter is as fascinated with the brand and line of guns but cannot fathom just looking at them, studying them, and showing them to others. He cannot and will not keep his hands off of them and assembles a collection of specimens, preferably in high but not necessarily all-original condition, that he lovingly maintains but definitely uses for their intended purpose. He regards “originalism” as a religion that he respects but does not practice, as one might regard those who, by doctrinal necessity, practice coitus interruptus as a method of birth control. 
Obviously the above are aspirational and most of our members fall somewhere in between. 
  

You forgot Branch 3.  The ones that want original guns in slightly used condition and will shoot them no matter the cost.  The only safe queens I own are percussion pistols.  I hate cleaning black powder and don’t want to hurt the cute ones.