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Before everyone jumps on me for this sacrilegious uttering let me explain. Bought a Model 1992 first year production and a take down which is unusual in the first year production. The metal is 70-80%. The wood is bad. Heavily oil stained and black in a lot of areas. What compounds the problem of refinishing is that the finish is not oil. If it were oil I would have little compunction of doing a refinish as I have done several before and they are as original as I believe possible to be. The wood is 2X and maybe more I don’t have that much hands on experience with the higher wood grades. So therefore it has a high gloss “Varnish” finish. I have read everything I can find on old Winchester finishes including Mike Hunter’s excellent article. I JUST CAN NOT STAND TO LOOK AT THAT BEAUTIFUL WOOD IN IT’S CURRENT CONDITION. None of these articles presents an authoritative method of doing a high gloss refinishing job. Restoration guys do it routinely. They may not wish to give away any trade secrets. I know that some of you guys have done this type of refinishing. I know how to get the oil out of the wood and any water stains if present. How to prep the wood for staining as it will need it after the stain removal process. It is at this point I need help on the following.
1. The proper stain (as close to originals as exists or can be made) to use and it’s application.
2. The proper finish (SAB) to use and it’s application.
Any other recommendations or comments.
Cheers
Kirk
Kirk Fitzgerald said
Before everyone jumps on me for this sacrilegious uttering let me explain. Bought a Model 1992 first year production and a take down which is unusual in the first year production. The metal is 70-80%. The wood is bad. Heavily oil stained and black in a lot of areas. What compounds the problem of refinishing is that the finish is not oil. If it were oil I would have little compunction of doing a refinish as I have done several before and they are as original as I believe possible to be. The wood is 2X and maybe more I don’t have that much hands on experience with the higher wood grades. So therefore it has a high gloss “Varnish” finish. I have read everything I can find on old Winchester finishes including Mike Hunter’s excellent article. I JUST CAN NOT STAND TO LOOK AT THAT BEAUTIFUL WOOD IN IT’S CURRENT CONDITION. None of these articles presents an authoritative method of doing a high gloss refinishing job. Restoration guys do it routinely. They may not wish to give away any trade secrets. I know that some of you guys have done this type of refinishing. I know how to get the oil out of the wood and any water stains if present. How to prep the wood for staining as it will need it after the stain removal process. It is at this point I need help on the following.1. The proper stain (as close to originals as exists or can be made) to use and it’s application.
2. The proper finish (SAB) to use and it’s application.
Any other recommendations or comments.
Cheers
Kirk
Pull the stock off and look at the left side of the lower tang. If it is XX it should be stamped on the tang. There could be an O or a V. These mean oil or varnish. If the gun has special order features it should have assembly numbers on the tang, stock and butt plate. If the wood originally had a varnish finish that is what you need to use. If is was oil use boiled linseed oil. In either case many coats need to be hand applied. Once the wood has stopped soaking in the oil/varnish you need to use a very fine sandpaper (600 or finer) or 0000 steel wool between the next coats. Any sanding needs to be done at a minimum and always use a sanding block. If you use your hands be very careful not to round over the edges or take off any more than you have to. I don’t like sanding at all. I have dozens of stains and usually mix my own. I do this before any finish removal so I can match the existing as best I can. I suggest not taking off the original stain just stain over it. I know you will have bad spots where the stain had to come off but with patience and a lot of work you can make all the wood took the same. Forend too.
cwachter,
Got it TX. Do not intend to sand. The staining advice is well taken. I don’t yet have the rifle. I live in CA and even antique fire arms are subject to a 10 day waiting period with a back ground check. I have however looked at the finish and it is a varnish. I have not had the opportunity to test it for varnish or shellac but will when I get the gun. Having said that, what type/brand of stain do you use to mix, Oil,water,paste? And maybe more importantly what type/brand of varnish do you use or mix? Did Winchester ever use a shellac finish?
Cheers
Kirk
Another method that I use for final finishing: (after you have your filling done)
This works for oil, varnish, varathane or whatever as long as it’s oil based. Cut your finish 50-50 with mineral spirits and apply with your fingers just getting the wood wet evenly. Let the finish sit for 5-10 minutes or until it just starts to get tacky. Use cheap napkins like the brown ones from fast food joints, they are not very absorbent. “buff” off the excess finish with cheap napkins until it all has the same appearance. You can regulate how much gloss you want by the number of applications you do. This eliminates sanding, steel wool and airborne dust particles from clinging to the stock.
More than one way around the barn.
Erin
Im no expert on the wood finishing department but have done a bit of it years ago. Especially on decent guns that have already been messed with by someone adding coats of varnish and such–for those I used Formbys Furniture Refinisher to strip the varnish and try to leave the original stain. If you take all the color out of the wood and start over you can strip it and soak it in water for a couple days to get the color and excess oil out.
To stain, I used a combination of stains including red oak, golden pecan, special walnut, early american, and a few others, usually mixing them together or sometimes adding one layer of stain at a time. Have also used Birchwood Casey Tru-oil, either alone or in addition to stains. Once you get the stain color where you want it I put on a coat boiled lindseed oil and let it dry. Once dry I would take a cloth and dip it into the boiled lindseed oil and dab on ground pumice to wipe down the stock to take down any excess, then repeat multiple times. Its a little bit faster application and more durable finish if you use a tung oil instead of boiled lindseed oil, then buff down with the pumice or rottenstone, and build up the finish.
Everyone has their own ways. As far as the color goes, its hard to replicate Winchesters stain colors, but if you take 20 guns and line them out you will see there is a lot of variations in the colors from the factory dependent on the wood and stain formula used.
The biggest factor in refinishing wood is not to round any of the edges. Its a dead giveaway and detracts when you do.
BTW, if you could forward the info on you TD I would like to add it to my TD survey. If its as early a TD as you say, I probably wouldnt do anything to the wood.
Chris
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Best stuff ever for Winchester stocks! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Winchester-Restorations-Stock-Oil-by-John-Kay-73-92-94-1873-1892-1894-76-86-95/123108356144?hash=item1ca9d47030:g:SZUAAOxy4RpRyviy:sc:USPSFirstClass!76020!US!-1
It takes patience but the payoff is huge. Follow the instructions that he sends you after you make your purchase and do not deviate from them.
1892takedown said
Im no expert on the wood finishing department but have done a bit of it years ago. Especially on decent guns that have already been messed with by someone adding coats of varnish and such–for those I used Formbys Furniture Refinisher to strip the varnish and try to leave the original stain. If you take all the color out of the wood and start over you can strip it and soak it in water for a couple days to get the color and excess oil out.To stain, I used a combination of stains including red oak, golden pecan, special walnut, early american, and a few others, usually mixing them together or sometimes adding one layer of stain at a time. Have also used Birchwood Casey Tru-oil, either alone or in addition to stains. Once you get the stain color where you want it I put on a coat boiled lindseed oil and let it dry. Once dry I would take a cloth and dip it into the boiled lindseed oil and dab on ground pumice to wipe down the stock to take down any excess, then repeat multiple times. Its a little bit faster application and more durable finish if you use a tung oil instead of boiled lindseed oil, then buff down with the pumice or rottenstone, and build up the finish.
Everyone has their own ways. As far as the color goes, its hard to replicate Winchesters stain colors, but if you take 20 guns and line them out you will see there is a lot of variations in the colors from the factory dependent on the wood and stain formula used.
The biggest factor in refinishing wood is not to round any of the edges. Its a dead giveaway and detracts when you do.
BTW, if you could forward the info on you TD I would like to add it to my TD survey. If its as early a TD as you say, I probably wouldnt do anything to the wood.
Chris
Please send pictures before you do any work. Maybe a little touch up is all that it needs.
I like every thing Chris said. I usually mix one of Chris’ oil based stains with some mahogany. The mid level walnut color usually needs some red that the mahogany will add. Repeated coats of finish will fill the wood and get the piano finish. Some type of sanding or using pumice between coats is required. Shellac is a very good seal coat after the staining. One of the best restorers around used an alcohol based stain he had made special order. You can also mix a little Tru Oil with the boiled linseed oil to get the gloss. Tung oil has a varnish in it already. Have fun.
I live in Cal. too. Antiques do not require a 10 day wait or a back ground check. You must be dealing with someone out of state or is overly cautious.
I do some leatherwork and have been thinking about trying some of these leather stains on wood to see how they come out. Just an idea, just need to get some old wood and try it out.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Thanks for all the input. I learned a lot. And for the record you all have successfully talked me out of refinishing the wood. A slow and methodical cleaning with 0000 steal wool and turpentine is doing an OK job bringing out the grain. Six hours into the cleaning and maybe half of the butt stock is done.
To Chris and 2bit,
I will send you the data and some photo’s when I got the rifle cleaned up. It was not abused but it was not really cared fore either; very dirty. Also some things I want to talk to you about then that are a bit strange about this gun.
To cwacher,
Oh contrair mis amigo! Our freedom loving state has a little known clause that slightly change the federal statutes. You are correct probably 98% of the time about antique guns not having to be sent to an FFL dealer or requiring a 10 day waiting period and a background check. Here is the catch: If the antique firearm still has ammunition currently available in normal ammunition channels it is not treated as an antique. My 92 is a Cal 38-40. And of course our beloved state takes another cut at sucking away more of your money. Sorry to hear you live here. Have a Plan B.
Cheers to all
Kirk
Kirk,
In California, serial number application date is the classification used for antique status, not ammunition classification or production availability.
Bill
Kirk Fitzgerald said
Thanks for all the input. I learned a lot. And for the record you all have successfully talked me out of refinishing the wood. A slow and methodical cleaning with 0000 steal wool and turpentine is doing an OK job bringing out the grain. Six hours into the cleaning and maybe half of the butt stock is done.To Chris and 2bit,
I will send you the data and some photo’s when I got the rifle cleaned up. It was not abused but it was not really cared fore either; very dirty. Also some things I want to talk to you about then that are a bit strange about this gun.
To cwacher,
Oh contrair mis amigo! Our freedom loving state has a little known clause that slightly change the federal statutes. You are correct probably 98% of the time about antique guns not having to be sent to an FFL dealer or requiring a 10 day waiting period and a background check. Here is the catch: If the antique firearm still has ammunition currently available in normal ammunition channels it is not treated as an antique. My 92 is a Cal 38-40. And of course our beloved state takes another cut at sucking away more of your money. Sorry to hear you live here. Have a Plan B.
Cheers to all
Kirk
It’s best for Bert to jump in here too. I believe that the Federal law has such a clause too. I have never heard of anyone trying to use this to determine the status of whether the gun is antique or not. I stand by my comments about the person you are dealing with. Glad to hear you are not destroying the gun. A refinish can sometimes be corrected.
Good Afternoon Folks,
I am finishing a Winchester Model 250 – 22 rifle.
The barrel and ammo tube is bluing and easily removed.
The receiver is alum and seems to be painted with black paint?
Is this a special paint or standard metal paint?
Thanks for your help and have a great day.
Ponoka gunbuddy
Ponoka gunbuddy said
Good Afternoon Folks,I am finishing a Winchester Model 250 – 22 rifle.
The barrel and ammo tube is bluing and easily removed.
The receiver is alum and seems to be painted with black paint?
Is this a special paint or standard metal paint?
Thanks for your help and have a great day.
Ponoka gunbuddy
I believe those are painted and if so, I’d use Brownell’s Alumahyde spray cans on it.
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