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1886 Barrel Swap
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April 9, 2023 - 5:43 pm
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I managed to save this cut-down 1886 from its fate as a parts gun and turn it into a good shooter by swapping barrels with another 40-65 barrel in the shop.  Now it’s time for some load development work.  For me, the most enjoyable part of this episode is the group of mule deer hanging around in the background as I test fired the rifle.  They can somehow have a 6th sense for knowing when hunting season is over. Smile  Mark

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April 9, 2023 - 6:20 pm
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Good job, Mark. Turned out very well, made it look easy. I’ve had mule deer hang out and watch me shoot in Raton, they do seem to know when they’re not threatened.

 

Mike

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April 9, 2023 - 8:14 pm
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Great job Mark!  Thanks for another Cinnabar video – I love them!

Happy Easter

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April 10, 2023 - 5:13 pm
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Another great one.  I have never removed a barrel on an 86 or 92 so this was very informative.  I have a barrel vise but no receiver vise.  Now I know what I need.  Wish my 40-65 shot that well.

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April 10, 2023 - 6:26 pm
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Thank you, Mark.  Great video!  I always learn something.  I have this Model 1876 in .40-60 WCF that I’m waiting on good weather to test out.  For sights it has the same setup as your rifle.  I have always liked the Beach combination sight.

I don’t have dies for this rifle.  Just using an original Winchester 1880 reloading tool and mold.  The mold drops 210 grain pills which are supposed to work with the .40-60’s twist.  As I recall, the .40-65 WCF (same as .40-60 Marlin) uses a 260 grain pill.  Maybe it had different twist?

49481-22.jpgImage Enlarger40-60-tool-mold-01.JPGImage Enlarger

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April 10, 2023 - 6:59 pm
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Bill Hockett said
Thank you, Mark.  Great video!  I always learn something.  I have this Model 1876 in .40-60 WCF that I’m waiting on good weather to test out.  For sights it has the same setup as your rifle.  I have always liked the Beach combination sight.

I don’t have dies for this rifle.  Just using an original Winchester 1880 reloading tool and mold.  The mold drops 210 grain pills which are supposed to work with the .40-60’s twist.  As I recall, the .40-65 WCF (same as .40-60 Marlin) uses a 260 grain pill.  Maybe it had different twist?

49481-22.jpgImage Enlarger40-60-tool-mold-01.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Bill,

Per the published factory information, the twist rate for the 40-60 WCF was 1:40, and it was 1:20 for the 40-65 WCF.

about 25-years ago I created this chart for the published twist rates & barrel sizes for the Single Shot rifle cartridges (I suppose I should have shared it here on the WACA website sooner);

 

Center Fire Cartridges Year Introduced Twist Rate Std. Length Std. Size Optional Sizes
22 Stevens {22-15-60} 1896 ? 26-inch No. 1 No. 2
22 CAL W.C.F. or 22 W.C.F.              L.W.            1885 1:20 26-inch No. 1 No. 2
22 CAL W.C.F. or 22 W.C.F.              H.W.            26-inch No. 1 No. 2, 3, 4, 5
236 USN {6mm Lee Navy} 1895 1:7.5 30-inch No. 3 Unknown
25 W.C.F. or 25-20 S.S.                   L.W. 1882 1:12 28-inch No. 1 No. 2
25 W.C.F. or 25-20 S.S.                   H.W. 30-inch No. 3 No. 1, 2, 4, 5
25-21 Stevens 1897 1:14 28-inch No. 2 No. 1, 3, 4, 5
25-25 Stevens 1895 1:17 30-inch No. 3 No. 1, 2, 4, 5
25 W.C.F. or 25-20 W.C.F.              L.W. 1895 1:14 28-inch No. 1 No. 2
25 W.C.F. or 25-20 W.C.F.              H.W. 30-inch No. 3 No. 1, 2, 4, 5
25-35 W.C.F.                           1895 1:8 30-inch No. 3 No. 3½, 4, 5
30 U.S. or .30 ARMY 1892 1:10 30-inch No. 3 No. 3½, 4
30 W.C.F.                                1895 1:12 30-inch No. 3 No. 3½, 4
.30 GOVT. 1906. 1906 1:10 30-inch No. 3 Unknown
303 BRITISH 1888 1:12 30-inch No. 3 No. 3½, 4
32 SHORT {Colt} 1875 1:36 28-inch No. 1 No. 2, 3, 4, 5
32 LONG {Colt}                             L.W. 1875 1:36 28-inch No. 1 No. 2, 3, 4, 5
32 LONG {Colt}                             H.W.      
32 BALLARD EX {Extra Long} 1879 1:36 28-inch No. 1 No. 2, 3, 4, 5
32 CAL W.C.F. or 32 W.C.F.              L.W. 1882 1:20 28/15-inch2 No. 1 No. 2
32 CAL W.C.F. or 32 W.C.F.             H.W. 28/30-inch No. 3 No. 1, 2, 4, 5
32 IDEAL                                        H.W. 1903 1:18 28/30-inch No. 3 No. 1, 2, 4, 5
32 IDEAL                                        L.W. 26-inch No. 1 No. 2,
CAL 32-40, 32-40, or 32-40 1884 1:16 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
32 W.S. {Winchester Special} 1902 1:16 30-inch No. 3 No. 3½, 4
33 W.C.F.                                1902 1:12 30-inch No. 3 No. 3½, 4, 5
35 W.C.F. 1903 1:12 30-inch No. 3½ No. 3, 4
38 LONG {Colt} 1875 1:36 28-inch No. 1 No. 2, 3, 4, 5
38 BALLARD EX {Extra Long} 1885 1:36 28-inch No. 1 No. 2, 3, 4, 5
38 CAL  W.C.F. or  38 W.CF.             L.W.           1874 1:36 28/15-inch2 No. 1 No. 2
38 CAL  W.C.F. or  38 W.CF.            H.W.           28/30-inch No. 3 No. 1, 2, 4, 5
CAL 38-55 or 38-55 1884 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
38-56 W.C.F.                           1885 1:20 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
38-70 {Winchester} 1894 1:24 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
38-72 W.C.F.                           1895 1:22 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
38 EX. (38-90 Winchester Express)     1886 1:26 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40-50 SHARPS STR or 40-50 S.S. 1879 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40-50 S.N. 1869 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
CAL 40-60 W.C.F., 40-60 WINCHESTER, or 40-60 W.C.F. 1876 1:40 30/32-inch5 No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40-60 M. {Marlin} 1881 1:20 30/32-inch5 No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40-65 W.C.F.                           1887 1:20 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
CAL 40-70 BALLARD or 40-70 BAL 1881 1:20 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
CAL 40-70 SHARPS STR., 40-70 SHARPS STR., or 40-70 S.S. 1876 1:20 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40-70 W.C.F. 1894 1:20 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40-82 W.C.F.                           1885 1:28 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40-90 BALLARD or 40-90 BAL 1881 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
CAL 40-90 SHARPS STR or 40-90 S.S. 1885 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
40 EX. {40-110 Winchester Express}    1886 1:28 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
405 W.C.F.                              1904 1:14 30-inch   No. 3, 4
.44 CAL  W.C.F. or 44 W.C.F.            L.W.  

1873

 

1:36

28-inch No. 1 No. 2
.44 CAL  W.C.F. or 44 W.C.F.           H.W. 28/30-inch No. 3 No. 1, 2, 4, 5
44 W.C.F.                                     L.W.C. 15-inch2 None
45-60 W.C.F.                           1879 1:20 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45-70 or 45-70 GOV’T.               Musket 1873 1:22 32-inch5 None
45-70 or 45-70 GOV’T. 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
CAL 45-70 SHARPS STR. 1875 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45-75 W.C.F.                           1876 1:20 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
CAL 45-90 BALLARD 1878 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45-90 W.C.F.                           1886 1:32 30/32-inch5 No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45 EX. {45-125 Winchester Express}    1886 1:36 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45 ELEY 1877 1:22 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45 SHARPS 2 4/10 1877 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45 SHARPS 2 6/10 1876 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45 SHARPS 2 3/4 1876 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45 SHARPS 2 7/8 1876 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
45 SHARPS 3 1/4 1878 1:18 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5

50 ELEY EX.

1865 1:60 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50-90 SHARPS 1872 1:36 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 SHARPS 3 1/4” 1880 1:44 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50-95 W.C.F. {Winchester Express} 1879 1:60 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50-100-450 {Express} 1892 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-110 Express} 1892 1:54 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-140 EX}                            1880 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
577 ELEY 1870 1:33 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5

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April 10, 2023 - 9:19 pm
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Great Info.  I just added it to my files.

Thanks

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April 10, 2023 - 9:35 pm
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Bill Hockett said
Thank you, Mark.  Great video!  I always learn something.  I have this Model 1876 in .40-60 WCF that I’m waiting on good weather to test out.  For sights it has the same setup as your rifle.  I have always liked the Beach combination sight.

I don’t have dies for this rifle.  Just using an original Winchester 1880 reloading tool and mold.  The mold drops 210 grain pills which are supposed to work with the .40-60’s twist.  As I recall, the .40-65 WCF (same as .40-60 Marlin) uses a 260 grain pill.  Maybe it had different twist?

49481-22.jpgImage Enlarger40-60-tool-mold-01.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Bill you are correct.  The 210 grain bullet was standard for the 40-60.  This case is shorter than the 40-60 Marlin and Colt Lightning Magazine Rifle.

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April 11, 2023 - 1:24 am
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Bill Hockett said
Thank you, Mark.  Great video!  I always learn something.  I have this Model 1876 in .40-60 WCF that I’m waiting on good weather to test out.  For sights it has the same setup as your rifle.  I have always liked the Beach combination sight.

I don’t have dies for this rifle.  Just using an original Winchester 1880 reloading tool and mold.  The mold drops 210 grain pills which are supposed to work with the .40-60’s twist.  As I recall, the .40-65 WCF (same as .40-60 Marlin) uses a 260 grain pill.  Maybe it had different twist?

49481-22.jpgImage Enlarger40-60-tool-mold-01.JPGImage Enlarger

  

 Bill,  I use the 40-60 Winchester mold and do not size. This has worked good in 5 of my 76s over the last 20 years. To load I use a 1894 tool. Good luck but I don’t think you’ll need it, never had a 40-60 shoot bad. T/R

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April 11, 2023 - 5:39 am
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Bert H. said

50-95 W.C.F. {Winchester Express} 1879 1:60 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50-100-450 {Express} 1892 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-110 Express} 1892 1:54 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-140 EX}                            1880 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5

Bert the Dow Book has a different number for the 50-110 and has a number for 50-100-450.

DOWbookPG-6.jpgImage EnlargerIt doesn’t have numbers for the 22 Stevens, 45-90 Ballard, & 50-140 Express.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 11, 2023 - 1:35 pm
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Maverick,

At the risk of sounding dumb, what is the “Dow Book” ?  I don’t think I have ever seen it and it looks informative.

Thanks!

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April 11, 2023 - 5:07 pm
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Maverick said

Bert H. said

50-95 W.C.F. {Winchester Express} 1879 1:60 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50-100-450 {Express} 1892 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-110 Express} 1892 1:54 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-140 EX}                            1880 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5

Bert the Dow Book has a different number for the 50-110 and has a number for 50-100-450.

DOWbookPG-6.jpgImage EnlargerIt doesn’t have numbers for the 22 Stevens, 45-90 Ballard, & 50-140 Express.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

Brady,

I derived my listing directly from Winchester’s published literature, but admittedly, I compiled it more than 20-years ago.  I will see if I can find any updated information.

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April 11, 2023 - 7:36 pm
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Thanks for the video Mark I liked it a lot. I have never had to replace a barrel but it was interesting to hear about your process. You were pretty lucky to happen to have a barrel that would work most of us don’t. I saw that you used Winchester Barrels for one of your projects and they have been mentioned on some posts here. If you didn’t have a barrel would you have tried to find one or a parts rifle or would you have used Winchester Barrels for a source to replace the original barrel? Especially since the rifle was in shooters grade?

Thanks,

Rob

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April 11, 2023 - 8:25 pm
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Thanks Robert.

In the past, I’ve got barrels from them in about 7-9 months.  I’m waiting for one now that I had ordered 8 months ago and was thinking it should be here any time. I asked about the status of the barrel last month and was told it would be shipped next week.  I’m still waiting.  Unfortunately, I heard from a fellow yesterday who’s had three 1886 barrels on order for 14 months.  We’ll see how it goes, but I’m a little nervous about ordering any more barrels from them at this time.  

Anybody know where there’s a cut rifling machine for sale? Wink Mark

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April 11, 2023 - 11:37 pm
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Bert H. said

Maverick said

Bert H. said

50-95 W.C.F. {Winchester Express} 1879 1:60 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50-100-450 {Express} 1892 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-110 Express} 1892 1:54 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-140 EX}                            1880 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5

Bert the Dow Book has a different number for the 50-110 and has a number for 50-100-450.

DOWbookPG-6.jpgImage EnlargerIt doesn’t have numbers for the 22 Stevens, 45-90 Ballard, & 50-140 Express.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

Brady,

I derived my listing directly from Winchester’s published literature, but admittedly, I compiled it more than 20-years ago.  I will see if I can find any updated information.

  

This is from a post I made on this topic a couple of years ago:

I’ve been studying various .50-110’s and .50-100-450’s that have come up for auction in recent years.  I also re-read Jim Paul and Tom Adams summer, 2012 article on the .50-100-450.  It sounds like the 50-100-450 had a rate of twist of one turn in 54 inches.  This was (at least for some rifles that were examined) marked on the underside of the barrel.  The .50-110 had a rate of twist of one turn in 60 inches and this apparently is not typically observed to be marked on the underside of the barrel.

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April 12, 2023 - 4:05 pm
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JWA said
Maverick,

At the risk of sounding dumb, what is the “Dow Book” ?  I don’t think I have ever seen it and it looks informative.

Thanks!

Jeffery, I’d thought you’d known about this one. Its an interesting read through for those detail oriented individuals such as yourself.

http://library.centerofthewest.org/digital/collection/p17097coll30/id/4107/rec/2

steve004 said

This is from a post I made on this topic a couple of years ago:

I’ve been studying various .50-110’s and .50-100-450’s that have come up for auction in recent years.  I also re-read Jim Paul and Tom Adams summer, 2012 article on the .50-100-450.  It sounds like the 50-100-450 had a rate of twist of one turn in 54 inches.  This was (at least for some rifles that were examined) marked on the underside of the barrel.  The .50-110 had a rate of twist of one turn in 60 inches and this apparently is not typically observed to be marked on the underside of the barrel.

Steve, I have no idea as too how they were marked on the underside of the barrel. To your above statement, the DOW book is in agreement with your assessment regarding rate of twist.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 13, 2023 - 5:26 pm
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I read through that entire “Dow book” late last night, and do not understand what its purpose was, and why all of the very unrelated information and notes were recorded in it. It is a very confusing document to say the least!

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April 13, 2023 - 6:19 pm
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Bert H. said
I read through that entire “Dow book” late last night, and do not understand what its purpose was, and why all of the very unrelated information and notes were recorded in it. It is a very confusing document to say the least!

Bert,

I currently don’t recall what H.B. Dow’s position at Winchester was, but he was in a supervisor / department head type position. I believe I have it written down somewhere. My understanding is that the book is simply his own work related record / notes he started in 1900 when transferring notes from an older ledger dated from 1896. I think its interesting when looking at this book and C.H. Griffith’s book from an employee perspective. They thought it was important enough to write it down. It simply appears to have various topics of importance in alphabetical order. For example under ‘P’, he notes info about patents and primers. 

I thought you find the note on page 37 about S.S. rifles in .577 Eley Express to be interesting. 1st 6 went to a company in Calcutta, 1 to the Winchester NY store, 1 to New Albany, Indiana, 1 to a Mr. Stinson in New York. Do you show there to be more than “9” single shot rifles in .577 Eley Ex? If so, I wonder how many were made after 1900? 

I wish more of these type employee document records would be found.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 13, 2023 - 6:55 pm
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Maverick said

Bert H. said

I read through that entire “Dow book” late last night, and do not understand what its purpose was, and why all of the very unrelated information and notes were recorded in it. It is a very confusing document to say the least!

Bert,

I currently don’t recall what H.B. Dow’s position at Winchester was, but he was in a supervisor / department head type position. I believe I have it written down somewhere. My understanding is that the book is simply his own work related record / notes he started in 1900 when transferring notes from an older ledger dated from 1896. I think its interesting when looking at this book and C.H. Griffith’s book from an employee perspective. They thought it was important enough to write it down. It simply appears to have various topics of importance in alphabetical order. For example under ‘P’, he notes info about patents and primers. 

I thought you find the note on page 37 about S.S. rifles in .577 Eley Express to be interesting. 1st 6 went to a company in Calcutta, 1 to the Winchester NY store, 1 to New Albany, Indiana, 1 to a Mr. Stinson in New York. Do you show there to be more than “9” single shot rifles in .577 Eley Ex? If so, I wonder how many were made after 1900? 

I wish more of these type employee document records would be found.

Sincerely,

Maverick  

In total, I have thus far found (11) Single Shot Rifles chambered for the 577 Eley cartridge.  Of that number, (10) of them are letterable, and (1) was in the 110000+ serial number range.  I do not expect to find any more of them, but one never knows.

Like you, I too would be very ecstatic to find more records of this type !

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April 14, 2023 - 1:52 pm
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Bert H. said

Maverick said

Bert H. said

50-95 W.C.F. {Winchester Express} 1879 1:60 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50-100-450 {Express} 1892 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-110 Express} 1892 1:54 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5
50 EX. {50-140 EX}                            1880 ? 30-inch No. 3 No. 2, 4, 5

Bert the Dow Book has a different number for the 50-110 and has a number for 50-100-450.

DOWbookPG-6.jpgImage EnlargerIt doesn’t have numbers for the 22 Stevens, 45-90 Ballard, & 50-140 Express.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

Brady,

I derived my listing directly from Winchester’s published literature, but admittedly, I compiled it more than 20-years ago.  I will see if I can find any updated information.

  

So the Dow book has a different number for the .50-110.  I wonder if anyone has one that they could measure?  Given the very slow rate of twist, this (in my mind) would not be easy to measure).  If you use the cleaning rod with a tight patch method and a mark on the rod, in a standard length barrel, that mark is only going to make about a half rotation.  

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