Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
George Lutton + 35 WIN.SL..WPA
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Otis Hard
Guest
WACA Guest
1
August 26, 2023 - 4:54 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Can anyone share any info they may have on this gun and ammo? 

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10636
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
August 26, 2023 - 5:36 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

The 35 Win S.L cartridge was only offered in the Model 1905, which was quickly replaced by Model 1907 and its slightly longer and more potent .351 S.L. cartridge.  I have no idea what the name “George Lutton” might be.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
August 26, 2023 - 7:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Perhaps there is M1905 .35SL with George Lutton’s name inscribed on the receiver?

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 490
Member Since:
August 27, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
August 26, 2023 - 8:42 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Associated in some way with the WPA i.e. Works Progress Administration of 1941

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10636
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
August 26, 2023 - 9:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Tedk said
Associated in some way with the WPA i.e. Works Progress Administration of 1941  

I am very doubtful that a Winchester Model 1905 would have been presented to someone as late as 1941.  The Model 1905 was discontinued in October, 1924.  Further, the Model 1905 production numbers from January 1st, 1908 to October 16th, 1924, was just 5,323 rifles.  In that 16-year 10-month span (202 months), the average production was just (26) rifles per month.  I still scratch my head wondering why Winchester did not discontinue the Model 1905 in the year 1908.  By the end of the year 1908, the Model 1907 production had already reached 24,912 in just 26-months of production (985 per month).

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
August 27, 2023 - 1:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

Tedk said

Associated in some way with the WPA i.e. Works Progress Administration of 1941  

I am very doubtful that a Winchester Model 1905 would have been presented to someone as late as 1941.  The Model 1905 was discontinued in October, 1924.  Further, the Model 1905 production numbers from January 1st, 1908 to October 16th, 1924, was just 5,323 rifles.  In that 16-year 10-month span (202 months), the average production was just (26) rifles per month.  I still scratch my head wondering why Winchester did not discontinue the Model 1905 in the year 1908.  By the end of the year 1908, the Model 1907 production had already reached 24,912 in just 26-months of production (985 per month).

Bert

  

Bert – that’s very interesting detail.  During my collecting career I’ve owned one M1903 and several of each of the M1905 (both chamberings), M1907 and M1910.  Of that group, there were two that were sort of special.  One of my .401’s was essentially new, and another .401 was a deluxe version.  But as to the group of them, in hindsight, it’s somewhat of a head-scratcher as to why I collected them at all.  I eventually moved them on in favor of lever rifles.  It is a curiosity why Winchester persisted with the manufacture of the M1905, for such an extended period, after the more powerful (e.g. slightly more useful) M1907 came out.   

They are however, all part of Winchester history Smile

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4524
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
August 27, 2023 - 4:10 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I have never owned any of these guns.  But, the cartridges interested me.  So examples of these are part of my cartridge collection.  They are the newest Winchester cartridges I have except for WW I and WW II military examples.  I do have 1 WRA experimental round from 1957.  It is a 30 cal with 2 ea. 22 cal bullets loaded into it.  Project SALVO duplex load.

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 168
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
December 8, 2023 - 5:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

This is an old thread but I’ve owned several of the Wincester centerfire self loaders, a ratty 1905/32, a couple of 1907 “police rifles”, and a deluxe 1907 with gorgeous burl Walnut checkered in the H pattern at 24 LPI.  All gone now except a  field grade 1956 1907 with semi military style stock and hooked finger piece on the cocking rod. Killed a nutria  with it. 

The net of all that was (a) learning how to repair cracked forearms; (b) paying what I thought was too much for 07 10 round factory mags was in time not too much; (c) the 1907 I still have is wordless proof of Winchester quality standards; (d) don’t even think about reloading the 351 SL, even with original factory cases unless you want to make yourself crazy; (e) the 07 I have is typical of the prison guard guns once commonly used in Texas.  I wish I had not passed on one with “TDC” burned into the face of its pistol grip. 

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; Life Member, National Rifle Association; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4524
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
December 8, 2023 - 5:58 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bill, out of curiosity, why is the 351 so hard to load?

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10636
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
December 8, 2023 - 6:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said
Bill, out of curiosity, why is the 351 so hard to load?  

It is not “hard to load” from a normal perspective.  What does make it “hard” (difficult) is finding the correct 180-gr round nose bullets, and then loading it to the exact velocity that Winchester loaded the factory ammo to.  The center fire Self Loading Rifles (S.L.R.) are very finicky about the load that will properly cycle the action, but not beat the action to death.  If the load is too light, the blow-back action will not fully cycle.  If the load is too hot, it will destroy the recoil buffers and break internal parts.  The other issue with the S.L.R.s is finding the empties after they get ejected from the action.  I do not shoot my Model 1905 S.L.R. anywhere that does not have a very clear and clean area near the shooting bench, and even then, it is difficult to find all of the ejected empty cases.  It also irritates anyone within a 30-foot arc on the right side of me when shooting it.  Simply put, it sprays the empties in a 180-degree arc on the right-hand side of the gun.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 168
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
December 8, 2023 - 8:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said
Bill, out of curiosity, why is the 351 so hard to load?

  

Bert has laid it out in gruesome detail. That and. at one time, RCBS had a special “Die Class”just for the .351SL.  Of course, if you wanted to swage down some .357 slugs or convert some 357 Maximum cases, a process endurable only by the truly possessed, the necessary forming dies and oddball gas checks were strictly “POR” 

It is literally cheaper to pay collector prices for and shoot moldy old factory ammo than to tool up and load the 351SL. 

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; Life Member, National Rifle Association; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Bo Rich
Guest
WACA Guest
12
December 8, 2023 - 9:13 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

My friend Leonard Speckin wrote an excellent book on the 1907 Winchester.  He also reissued The Forgtten Winchester by Henwood.  These are worth getting for the People interested in the Winchester Self Loaders.  Interestingly the Self Loading Models were one of Winchesters more expensive Models when they were in production.  I feel that this may be a cause for the lower numbers made.  Interestingly most of the 1905 Models that I have seen are very worn.  Which kind of tells

me that were used alot, and must of done what there owners wanted them to do.  I kinda got into the Self Loaders a bit latter in my Winchester collecting.  I am glad that I did.  When I shoot my 1907 at the range I use a brass catcher designed for a AR-15 that works well.  

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 168
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
December 9, 2023 - 2:28 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bo Rich said
My friend Leonard Speckin wrote an excellent book on the 1907 Winchester.  He also reissued The Forgtten Winchester by Henwood.  These are worth getting for the People interested in the Winchester Self Loaders.  Interestingly the Self Loading Models were one of Winchesters more expensive Models when they were in production.  I feel that this may be a cause for the lower numbers made.  Interestingly most of the 1905 Models that I have seen are very worn.  Which kind of tells

me that were used alot, and must of done what there owners wanted them to do.  I kinda got into the Self Loaders a bit latter in my Winchester collecting.  I am glad that I did.  When I shoot my 1907 at the range I use a brass catcher designed for a AR-15 that works well.  

  

I think I’ve got a copy of the Henwood book. Do you happen to have a title for the book Leonard wrote?  Agree with you about the steep price of the self-loaders, and that was at a time when Winchester had some control over their retail price, too. That is to say, you paid “list” or did without…

If memory serves, Winchester sold some ’07 rifles to the French for aerial use during WWI, before machine guns and propellers got synchronized.  In Herb Houze’s history there is an image of a cloth brass catcher WRA sold with the guns.  I think those self loaders were supposed to be used to pop barrage balloons but, pilots being pilots, their obervers or whatever they called the guys in back, wound up taking potshots at enemy aircraft. That was probably the apogee of their useful existence. 

The 1907 was reasonably popular with the underworld, too.  A talented gunsmith of German descent in San Antonio built full auto ’07 carbines for the Dillinger gang and one gang member, Homer van Meter, killed a police officer with his in a prelude to a bank robbery.  Photos I’ve seen showed a forward grip, a long magazine, and a Cutts Compensator. A stock semi-auto ’07 with a 5-round magazine was one of the weapons used in the St. Valentine’s Day massacre (see attached photo.) 

Even if obsolete, the ’07 could fire a 180 grain 35 caliber roundnose lead slug at 1800 foot seconds, which, at close range, has always been very attention getting.  Before WWII, these carbines were fairly popular within the Texas Department of Corrections to arm prison guards and they were not uncommon in the weapon racks of many small town police departments and sheriff’s offices, as an alternative to the Winchester 94 and 92 carbines also in use. WEAPONS-BURKE-HOUSE.jpgImage Enlarger 

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; Life Member, National Rifle Association; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Bo Rich
Guest
WACA Guest
14
December 9, 2023 - 3:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Lenard Speckin’s book is titled “Winchester Model 07 Self Loading .351 Caliber”.  Leonard gave me permission to post his phone number here.  He can be reached at 517-881-9028.  Any one interested in the self loading Models, or Winchesters for that matter will enjoy his book.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: deerhunter, Thomas Beckwith, JC, Bill Yadlosky
Guest(s) 49
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6166
TXGunNut: 4885
Chuck: 4524
1873man: 4268
steve004: 4108
Big Larry: 2297
twobit: 2284
TR: 1697
mrcvs: 1670
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12526
Posts: 108792

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1731
Members: 8735
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation