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December 27, 2024
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How detailed of a record did Winchester keep for each gun that went out? Did they keep records for each gun or a block / run of guns?
Dan #67288
May 2, 2009
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For the guns they have the warehouse records for, they have the dates they entered and shipped from the warehouse and a description of the gun and its order number. If the gun was a standard like a early 73 carbine it just said “carbine” since 44 caliber was standard. They didn’t say it was blued since that was standard. On deluxe guns they would call out finishes, and configuration like set trigger, case hardened, checkered wood, pistol grip and sometimes grade of wood. Usually if it was a deluxe grade gun they didn’t mention the grade of wood since it was standard to put a fancy grade of wood on it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
May 23, 2009
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The records of a particular gun can be very detailed on one end of the spectrum to being blank on the other end. It all depends on the model gun, the timeframe of the available records the gun falls in and how detailed the recordkeeper on the day was when writing in the ledger book. Generally the more ornate and deluxe a Winchester has a more detailed record of it in the ledger, but for some very ornate engraved highly finished guns the records no longer exist. At least as far as we know they don’t, until they show up in private hands or on the auction block.
Also depends on your definition of what “Records” constitutes as well. Contrary to popular belief not all “records” made it from New Haven, CT to the Cody Firearms Museum in WY. Quite a few records like factory drawings and personnel ledgers are in private hands. For instance I’ve got a detail drawing of the lever and butt plate for the 1885 Single Shot hanging on my office wall. Cody only has a blueprint copy of said drawing. I was speaking to a gentleman the other day that has John Gardner’s personal notebook that he picked up at a gun show. Gardner was head of the cartridge department for many years and his journal is particularly interesting, at least to me that is.
Here is a picture of the state of the factory’s drawing room not too many years after the 2006 New Haven plant closing. There were still some very old drawings left in the room.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
December 27, 2024
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wow – very cool guys and very interesting information.
Dan #67288
March 31, 2009
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Maverick said
The records of a particular gun can be very detailed on one end of the spectrum to being blank on the other end. It all depends on the model gun, the timeframe of the available records the gun falls in and how detailed the recordkeeper on the day was when writing in the ledger book. Generally the more ornate and deluxe a Winchester has a more detailed record of it in the ledger, but for some very ornate engraved highly finished guns the records no longer exist. At least as far as we know they don’t, until they show up in private hands or on the auction block.
Also depends on your definition of what “Records” constitutes as well. Contrary to popular belief not all “records” made it from New Haven, CT to the Cody Firearms Museum in WY. Quite a few records like factory drawings and personnel ledgers are in private hands. For instance I’ve got a detail drawing of the lever and butt plate for the 1885 Single Shot hanging on my office wall. Cody only has a blueprint copy of said drawing. I was speaking to a gentleman the other day that has John Gardner’s personal notebook that he picked up at a gun show. Gardner was head of the cartridge department for many years and his journal is particularly interesting, at least to me that is.
Here is a picture of the state of the factory’s drawing room not too many years after the 2006 New Haven plant closing. There were still some very old drawings left in the room.Sincerely,
Maverick
Maverick and others.
I am going through all my reference materials and I am working on a folder that will include all the forgotten, prototype, experimental and rare cartridges I can find. If you have something to add I’d appreciate it. Soon, I hope, I’ll send you the first draft. Since I’m using Excel it would be best to email it to you.
May 23, 2009
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Just shoot me a PM and I’d be glad to look at it.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
March 31, 2009
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Maverick said
Just shoot me a PM and I’d be glad to look at it.
Sincerely,
Maverick
I was hoping to email it. I’d have to change the format of all of the documents to PM them.
May 23, 2009
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Okay, I’ll PM you my email.
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
November 5, 2014
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Dan-
In your original post you didn’t indicate which Model(s) you are interested in. The records Maverick is referring to cover most Models made between 1873 and 1906. Those are the models for which the bound shipping ledgers were preserved.
https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/winchester/
OTOH… From 1906 onwards, the most you can hope to get is the SNA (Serial Number Application) date for the receiver. After 1906, Winchester switched to an index card system for tracking each rifle, and those cards were ultimately destroyed. The exception is the Model 21, since most were built in the Custom Shop and (most of) those records survive.
For the Model 70, for example, there are no records except for the Polishing Room Records (SNA dates) covering a very small block of serial numbers in the post-war 1940s. Nothing else…
Just to clarify…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
March 31, 2009
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Just to be clear, I am interested in all Winchester cartridges that are pre 64.
December 27, 2024
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Louis Luttrell said
Dan-
In your original post you didn’t indicate which Model(s) you are interested in. The records Maverick is referring to cover most Models made between 1873 and 1906. Those are the models for which the bound shipping ledgers were preserved.
https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/winchester/
OTOH… From 1906 onwards, the most you can hope to get is the SNA (Serial Number Application) date for the receiver. After 1906, Winchester switched to an index card system for tracking each rifle, and those cards were ultimately destroyed. The exception is the Model 21, since most were built in the Custom Shop and (most of) those records survive.
For the Model 70, for example, there are no records except for the Polishing Room Records (SNA dates) covering a very small block of serial numbers in the post-war 1940s. Nothing else…
Just to clarify…
Lou
Thank you Lou. I guess I wasn’t asking specifically about any model, just in general. I would have thought that there would be more and more detailed records in later dates. Interesting.
Dan #67288
November 5, 2014
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Hi Dan-
I agree that the lack of later records is unfortunate. It would save us having to do all these surveys of the “non-letterable” guns!!! 
I suppose that destroying records made sense to the factory, which was in the business of making/selling guns, not creating a historical archive. There was no Gun Control Act record keeping requirement placed on manufacturers at the time. Serial numbers were used for internal tracking purposes, not stamped to comply with Government mandates.
In the early 1900’s WRACO changed the way it tracked individual firearms, from bound Shipping Department records to an index card system. The 19th Century records were ultimately judged “historically significant” and were preserved. Eventually they were copied on microfilm, such that nowadays the CFM Staff (Jessie) does not have to page through the individual paper ledgers to answer a serial number query.
But you can imagine that by the mid-20th Century the factory would have accumulated literally millions of index cards (warehouses full)… In the pre-computer era these were virtually useless after a gun had been shipped. Finding the card on, for example, a particular Model 70 made in 1942, would be virtually impossible. The general thought is that the factory decided to get rid of all this useless fire hazard, and tons of obsolete paper was burned in the factory furnaces (not the result of an accidental fire). Much of this occurred in the late 1950’s when Winchester opened its “New Record Room”. There are articles in the factory newsletter describing how many tons of paper was disposed of around that time…
Net result is that us modern day collectors of 20th Century Winchesters are left with little go on…
So before ordering a “letter” on a gun, it’s best to check with CFM and see what they’ve got. Use those free serial number lookups you received as a WACA Member, and if you’re really getting into antiques (letterable Winchesters), join CFM and take advantage of the lookups/letters that come with Membership as well as the “bonus” lookups you get for being a member of both WACA and CFM… 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
April 15, 2005
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Use this link to determine which specific records are available at the CFM – SerialNumberRanges2024-Winchester.pdf (centerofthewest.org)
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 27, 2024
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Thank you guys!
Dan #67288
November 7, 2015
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It’s amusing to imagine how surprised the folks at Winchester would be if they could see how carefully these remaining records are being scrutinized and the destruction of other records mourned today. We can thank Edwin Pugsley and other Winchester employees for preserving the records we can access through the dedicated folks at Cody Firearms Museum. Due to their efforts many of the records we want have been stored electronically and the physical copies preserved. Other records are being preserved by collectors, hopefully they will continue to be responsible custodians.
Mike
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