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What to make of this 1894?
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March 1, 2022 - 1:13 am
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I was perusing GB today and came across this 1894 that seems odd? The serial number indicates is from 1902. But the tang markings aren’t correct for 1902, and the serial number is also stamped in front of the trigger in addition to it’s normal placement. That seems odd to me too, I haven’t seen that before. 

 

Wheat do you all think?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/924381074

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March 1, 2022 - 1:38 am
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The original serial number has been removed and re-stamped with a bogus fraudulent serial number.  Stay away from this one.

Don

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March 1, 2022 - 1:41 am
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Don, I had no plans to be bidding on this, but for me it was a good example of the “if something looks odd, it probably is” !

 

I even messaged the seller to see what he would say, he claimed to know nothing and said he’d check into it Laugh

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March 1, 2022 - 1:59 am
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Matt Herman said
I was perusing GB today and came across this 1894 that seems odd? The serial number indicates is from 1902. But the tang markings aren’t correct for 1902, and the serial number is also stamped in front of the trigger in addition to it’s normal placement. That seems odd to me too, I haven’t seen that before. 

 

Wheat do you all think?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/924381074  

Matt – you are correct about the upper tang – it should look like the photo below. Look at how poor the wood to metal fit around the upper tang is on the Gun Broker gun – this is a parts gun – Winchester did not make guns with fit & finish like that – run away – be careful – these guns are everywhere.

94uppertang.JPGImage Enlarger

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March 1, 2022 - 2:16 am
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Yes sir Burt, I noticed the tang immediately, and then the serial number. I consulted my Renneberg book just to be 100% certain and it confirmed it. This one isn’t even doing a good job of trying to hide the fact that it’s misrepresented, but it’s good for my education for sure! I’m leary of the ones I may not be able to spot!

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March 1, 2022 - 2:33 am
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Illegally altered serial number. The barrel marking and upper tang marking indicate a late 1920s production rifle. The date stamped on the bottom of the barrel would tell “the rest of the story” in the immortal words of Paul Harvey. It is most Definitely NOT an “antique”, even if the serial number was original.

Bert

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March 1, 2022 - 3:31 am
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Bert H. said  It is most Definitely NOT an “antique”, even if the serial number was original.
Bert  

There’s something to be gained by passing it off as an “antique,” but what could be achieved by changing it to this number? 

The con-artist who’s selling it is a MASTER of phony-baloney BS that should be insulting to the intelligence of anyone beyond the rank-novice category of collector.  In fact, other “history lessons” of his that I’ve read surpass this one in nauseating double-talk.  Yet the know-nothings eat it up, as his sales figures demonstrate! 

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March 1, 2022 - 4:59 am
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Clarence, I am a new collector, but luckily for me I have found this forum, bought a few books, and have done my best to immerse myself into learning as much as I can. It’s a shame, you can see this particular seller would appear to have an A+ rating with a lot of sales, and I’d suspect that puts a lot of bidders minds at ease unfortunately. I did email him, just to see what he’d say to my query, and he replied with “the rifle being returned to the factory at some point would be the most plausible explanation I can think of.” He know’s of course that it’s a lie. And there are a handful of bids on it too!

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March 1, 2022 - 10:30 am
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And this is supposedly a reputable and well regarded seller???

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March 1, 2022 - 2:52 pm
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mrcvs said
And this is supposedly a reputable and well regarded seller???  

Well regarded by know-nothings, who make up a large percentage (if not the majority) of on-line buyers.  To be wildly successful in this racket, as this huckster is, it’s only necessary to pile it on thick; the jive BS, that is.

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March 1, 2022 - 3:27 pm
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I have never dealt with Lock, Stock, & Barrel.  I just have seen others write they have nice offerings, albeit at Gunbroker’s inflated hammer prices.  For someone so well regarded, they shouldn’t be offering items like this, or at least knowingly misrepresenting them.  Not to mention an altered serial number makes this rifle one hot potato!

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March 1, 2022 - 4:25 pm
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Surely such a big-time dealer has a Cody membership–the cost would be a tax write-off.  So why, instead of all the extraneous BS (like explaining the purpose of the tang sight screw–how very helpful!), did he not run the serial & report the results? 

It’s not even the fraudulent gun that offends me, as I doubt he had anything to do with faking it, but the blatant hucksterism makes me want to choke–the avalanche of irrelevant details & “history lesson,” as if he was making a presentation to the ladies’ garden club.  The only thing needed is, as Detective Joe Friday always used to say, “just the facts, ma’m.”

Note his location, Simi Valley, which explains a lot.

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March 1, 2022 - 5:18 pm
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Just another, “A+” gunbroker seller.  With over 12,000 pieces of feedback.

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March 1, 2022 - 9:37 pm
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I am going to take a different point of view based on my personal experience of contacting and working with the folks at Lock Stock & Barrel.  I have worked with LS&B several times when Model 61 rifles have been recognized to have been faked and the staff and owner of LS&B have been EXTREMELY helpful to the point of going back into old sales files to garner information for me in an effort to trace the sales history of guns.  I have not found them in any way to be fraudulent, dismissive, or unscrupulous in their dealings.  

I will keep out of the childish name calling, mud throwing, and geographic prejudice that is not needed in this forum.

Michael

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March 2, 2022 - 12:16 am
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twobit said
I am going to take a different point of view based on my personal experience of contacting and working with the folks at Lock Stock & Barrel.  I have worked with LS&B several times when Model 61 rifles have been recognized to have been faked and the staff and owner of LS&B have been EXTREMELY helpful to the point of going back into old sales files to garner information for me in an effort to trace the sales history of guns.  I have not found them in any way to be fraudulent, dismissive, or unscrupulous in their dealings.  

I will keep out of the childish name calling, mud throwing, and geographic prejudice that is not needed in this forum.

Michael  

Michael – I appreciate your comments as I believe it is appropriate to share both positive and negative experiences on this forum.  I note Matt Herman mentions above that he messaged the seller who responded he will look into the issues Matt raised.  I haven’t seen any change to the auction – but maybe that’s coming.  If there are no changes made to the auction, it sure seems to me someone is going to get truly ripped off and end up owning a rifle that as Bert points out, has an illegally altered serial number.  I believe you that in your personal experience this seller, you did not find them to be fraudulent, etc. That doesn’t mean all have the same experience.  The way this particular rifle is being presented is very disturbing.  I also continue to believe that unscrupulous dealing on gunbroker is very widespread (as well as other internet and live auction sites).  

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March 2, 2022 - 1:02 am
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Michael, I can understand you coming to the defense of a seller that you have had positive interactions with in the past. And I’m not here to bash on anyone, my post was merely made to bring attention to others (that know much more than me) of a seemingly falsely described rifle, one that was clearly pieced together, whether the seller knew it or not. It was also a bit of a pat on the back moment to myself, in that I was able to quickly spot a problem.

However, by your own admission you stated that you have “worked with him several times when Model 61 rifles have been recognized to be faked”, so the fact that he has listed rifles previously and wasn’t genuine or authentic with their descriptions, is enough for me to move on any time I see a listing by this particular seller. In addition to that, the comments from other members here that have seemingly witnessed this behavior in the past only adds to my conviction that the seller can’t be trusted.

 

I apologize for stirring up a ruckus here, being that I’m such a new guy to the forum. 

 

Matt

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March 2, 2022 - 1:26 am
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Hello Matt,

If we want to start listing all the sellers that “I/the members of WACA” have identified as having a “questionable” item for sale it might start getting real hard to buy a Winchester!!!  LOTS of well know and supposedly “regarded” dealers and BIG name auction houses have put up bogus firearms.  In other words, these dealers or auction houses are NOT, and I repeat NOT in the business of checking the authenticity of several hundreds of various rifles for their sales.  That is OUR job to do!!  Do we REALLY believe the used car salesman?  Should we really think that just someone sells Winchesters that they have “found god?????”  And keep in mind for many of these guns there may not be an absolute accurate reference guide to go by.  I can tell you for the Model 1892’s there isn’t and for the Model 61’s there are more than few points of difference with the printed and accepted “reality.”  And look at how many revisions of the MODEL 94 there are as we constantly learn more.  I started collecting about 10+ years ago when Madis DOM was the rule.  Then the serialization room data came out of hiding and LOTS of supposed “antique” rifles lost a bunch of value!!  

You did a great job for yourself and should be proud of your learning curve!  I full heartedly applaud you.  Any “collector” who buys one the printed add need to go see my cousin who sells used cars!  You did nothing wrong with you original question.  It is how we all learn.

Michael

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March 2, 2022 - 1:34 am
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Hello,

I sent an email to LS&B asking them to look into this item.  Here is the reply I received:

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I do recall messaging with Mr. Herman (though there was some editing in his quote from our correspondence), and asked my writer to look into it a little more. He’s a little new to writing Winchesters but had been doing well. I would have thought he would catch that, but it looks like it got by him. Looking at the rifle in person, it’s pretty clear that the WACA forum members are correct about the rifle and we will work with GunBroker to have the listing removed.

In my book that comes up as, how did I say it?   “I have not found them in any way to be fraudulent, dismissive, or unscrupulous in their dealings.”  Yeah, that’s it.

Michael  

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March 2, 2022 - 2:24 am
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twobit said
Hello,

I sent an email to LS&B asking them to look into this item.  Here is the reply I received:

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I do recall messaging with Mr. Herman (though there was some editing in his quote from our correspondence), and asked my writer to look into it a little more. He’s a little new to writing Winchesters but had been doing well. I would have thought he would catch that, but it looks like it got by him. Looking at the rifle in person, it’s pretty clear that the WACA forum members are correct about the rifle and we will work with GunBroker to have the listing removed.

In my book that comes up as, how did I say it?   “I have not found them in any way to be fraudulent, dismissive, or unscrupulous in their dealings.”  Yeah, that’s it.

Michael    

Caught with his pants down, what else could he say?  Then to blame it all on “his writer.” Oh, brother.

Here’s Wiki’s definition of “huckster”: “A huckster is anyone who sells something or serves biased interests, using pushy or showy tactics.”  You’d deny the name, in this case, fits like a glove?

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March 2, 2022 - 2:36 am
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Matt Herman said

I apologize for stirring up a ruckus here, being that I’m such a new guy to the forum. 

 

Matt  

I commend you for doing so–it flushes out the apologists for devious gun dealing on this board. 

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