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I’m a Canadian who lives in S/W Ontario, as such I am lucky to be acquainted with two very advanced Winchester Collectors and long term WACA Members.
From time to time I have been set-up beside or near these two fellows at our regional Gun-shows.
Their respective Collections amaze me every time – and the Winchesters they own are certainly at the top of the game.
Both fellows each own some Turnbull Restorations and these guns are truly spectacular.
So my question is, what is the prevailing sentiment among the WACA Community regarding the Turnbull Restoration Guns,
and are they considered to be in a “class of their own” among restored/refinished guns ?
And finally, without causing trouble over the “Miroku Guns” again, what are the thoughts about the Newly Manufactured Winchester Models that are available from Turnbull.
Personally I like them all very much and they do become available up here every once in a while.
All comments appreciated…
Season’s Greetings to All ….Dave
David, So far the antique gun world has not embraced restoration the way the car world has. A professional restored gun can be made at anytime, original cannot. Once you apply or reapply a serial number how do you tell what it is? Newly manufactured parts are added, old parts are substituted, and even with expert craftsmanship it’s a small market. Unless the gun is really rare or has history, it’s value is more or less the cost of the restoration. The number of original guns is finite. T/R
Hi Dave I guess I’m one of the guys periodically camped beside You at Woodstock or Orangeville. I like the Turnbull restorations and do personally have a couple. In My view it’s like having an antique car, yes it’s nice to have the original if You can find one in nice cond. that’s affordable, but barring that a properly restored piece is not offensive to Me and can be absolutely breath taking especially if it’s something unique, and is usually more affordable. Two examples of this 1, I just sold a completely original 1967 Mustang GTA Fastback ,1 of a kind in that it is the only one factory painted the color it is, with 29,000 miles showing, The car went for $80,000.00, if it had been a restored car it would be in the $50,000.00 -$60,000.00 range. 2 I have a mod.’94 ser#15147 it is a 1 of a kind piece in that it’s the only one made ,out of 7,500,000 ’94’s, with a extra heavy barrel, plus it has a Swiss butt and cheek piece in the stock (letters). It has had a complete Turnbull restoration and is beautiful. I figure it has a value of $60,000.00 – $70,000.00 (my opinion only), now if it was in this condition and original, How would one put a value on it, and if it was in original and very rough cond. I don’t believe the desireability would be there, at least not for Me. So I guess the beauty and value is in the Eye of the beholder, and everyone has their own opinion on this. What I do know is I have the only one and I like it. I once owned a 23″ bbl’d mod. ’94 rifle, factory engraved etc. it was not restored and was in pretty good cond. but , to Me not nice, so I sold it for a whole lot less than $60,000.00. I currently have a mod. ’73 factory engraved and gold washed s.r.c. that is in good orig. cond, but not pretty, I,m probably going to sell or trade it for a shiny ’73 s.r.c. Any way stop around and say hi any time.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
November 7, 2015
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I think “class of their own” describes Turnbull’s work. There are a few others who do quality restoration and enhancements and I enjoy looking at them as well. A friend had a Miroku Browning converted to a “Winchester” by Turnbull and we both agree it’s too beautiful to shoot. That’s the biggest problem I have with Doug’s efforts; I’d be afraid to take them to the range, much less hunt with them.
Mike
TXGunNut said
A friend had a Miroku Browning converted to a “Winchester” by Turnbull and we both agree it’s too beautiful to shoot. That’s the biggest problem I have with Doug’s efforts; I’d be afraid to take them to the range, much less hunt with them.Mike
I’ve always presumed the principal reason for having such showpieces created was, literally, to “show them off” to admiring friends in the safety of one’s comfortable gun room. But that attitude didn’t originate with Turnbull & his customers–I’ve seen too many super-deluxe Griffin & Howes, & similar carriage-trade guns, that looked as if they rarely, if ever, suffered the trials & tribulations of even a trip to the range. Personally, that attitude leaves me cold, but I’m glad there are those willing to pay for this level of perfection, if for no other reason than to keep alive the professional skills needed to do it.
I think it’s wonderful when badly beat up guns, maybe doomed to be parted-out, are given a new lease on life by being restored to like-new condition. What I hate to think about, however, are the nice, clean, guns, maybe 70 to 80 per centers so far as bluing is concerned, but with no pitting or other serious blemishes, having good smooth wood free of gouges or bad scrapes, guns, in other words, that have been well used but also well cared for, that wind up getting the “too beautiful to shoot” treatment. Because I would like to shoot them, & guns in that condition are still affordable for the hoi polloi.
As collectors age and more and more quality pieces come on the market, there’s plenty to pick from, so one shouldn’t have to consider a refinished piece, Turnbull or otherwise. A Turnbull restored Winchester is a restoration, 0% original, and is of less value or interest to me than a nonrestored Winchester with little original finish.
Henry Mero said
Hi Dave I guess I’m one of the guys periodically camped beside You at Woodstock or Orangeville. I like the Turnbull restorations and do personally have a couple. In My view it’s like having an antique car, yes it’s nice to have the original if You can find one in nice cond. that’s affordable, but barring that a properly restored piece is not offensive to Me and can be absolutely breath taking especially if it’s something unique, and is usually more affordable. Two examples of this 1, I just sold a completely original 1967 Mustang GTA Fastback ,1 of a kind in that it is the only one factory painted the color it is, with 29,000 miles showing, The car went for $80,000.00, if it had been a restored car it would be in the $50,000.00 -$60,000.00 range. 2 I have a mod.’94 ser#15147 it is a 1 of a kind piece in that it’s the only one made ,out of 7,500,000 ’94’s, with a extra heavy barrel, plus it has a Swiss butt and cheek piece in the stock (letters). It has had a complete Turnbull restoration and is beautiful. I figure it has a value of $60,000.00 – $70,000.00 (my opinion only), now if it was in this condition and original, How would one put a value on it, and if it was in original and very rough cond. I don’t believe the desireability would be there, at least not for Me. So I guess the beauty and value is in the Eye of the beholder, and everyone has their own opinion on this. What I do know is I have the only one and I like it. I once owned a 23″ bbl’d mod. ’94 rifle, factory engraved etc. it was not restored and was in pretty good cond. but , to Me not nice, so I sold it for a whole lot less than $60,000.00. I currently have a mod. ’73 factory engraved and gold washed s.r.c. that is in good orig. cond, but not pretty, I,m probably going to sell or trade it for a shiny ’73 s.r.c. Any way stop around and say hi any time.
Yes Harry, It was you and Wayne C. that I was referring to in my original post. I get what you’re saying and agree completely.
I’m still knocked-out by the ’94 #15147 – that you had on the table a little while back plus everything else.
And still somewhat staggered by the “Gun-show Goofballs” who kept touching your stuff without permission even with your very polite signs not to do so displayed.
I guess some things will never change – there is no shortage of disrespect or stupidity.
As for Antique Cars – same deal – I am lucky to own an Original Survivor, a 1966 Chrysler 300 2Dr Hardtop with only 8,900 Original Miles on the clock.
My Grandfather bought it new in ’66 and died 2 years later. No Winter Driving and garaged every day since new.
I can’t determine if it’s unique in any way because Chrysler-Canada destroyed all the old build records.
I won the Best Original Car Trophy at the New Hamburg Mopar-fest in 2006. I’ll bring some photo’s along next time.
Best regards…Dave
On my post I used the words,”once you apply or reapply a serial number how do you tell what it is”. Short of owning the original rifle pre restoration or pictures of it before hand, it’s hard to prove part of it came from the original gun at the next sale. The usual high end restoration uses new wood, barrel, and tube. In the case of engraved guns in poor condition, even a donor receiver. If the gun is rare it perhaps does not add much value without documentation. The original condition is the documentation, restored needs documentation if you want to preserve it’s value. T/R
David McNab said
And still somewhat staggered by the “Gun-show Goofballs” who kept touching your stuff without permission even with your very polite signs not to do so displayed.
I guess some things will never change – there is no shortage of disrespect or stupidity.
Idiots. Pawing at your, my, stuff. Or letting their munchkins with candy and boogers on their hands paw at it.
Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.
Old Logger said
David McNab said
And still somewhat staggered by the “Gun-show Goofballs” who kept touching your stuff without permission even with your very polite signs not to do so displayed.
I guess some things will never change – there is no shortage of disrespect or stupidity.Idiots. Pawing at your, my, stuff. Or letting their munchkins with candy and boogers on their hands paw at it.
EXACTLY ! – And the worst ones are the guys who set down their coffee cups on the table, on my books and stuff.
Or hang over the table eating a hamburger or bacon-sandwich with ketchup and onions squirting in all directions.
I thought about starting a separate post on this subject but I figured our “Blood-Pressure” might not bear the strain.
Merry Xmas …Dave
I gave some thought to bidding on the Winchester discussed in another thread here that was supposedly owned by the rich author activist, Elsie Clews Parsons, since my wife’s adopted name is Clews, and she was raised in and around Quincy, Massachusetts. Her Clews family, although common folks, might well be related to Elsie’s bunch at some time in the early to mid 1800s. Elsie’s family is from Staffordshire in England and my wife’s Clews family roots are in Nottinghamshire…one county to the east. I mentioned to the wife that we could pass it on to our grandson should we bid and win, and that we could consider Turnbull doing a restoration. The discussion on this issue has trailed off, making it doubtful that I’ll bid on the item. I do not own any Turnbull restorations.
James
Not fond of the Turnbull firearms myself.Do not own one and really no desire to ever own one.
As to the new Japanese made Winchesters.I do not own one,but am not opposed to them ,like the restorations.They are new manufacture and the closest one is going to come these days, to buying a new Winchester.As Browning has them made using a licence from Olin, who have owned Winchester since the 1930s. No one else has a licence from Olin to make Winchester firearms.
Just my opinion ,for what its worth.
I don’t care for them either. His case colors are so dark. I liked the guns done by Rogers Restoration a lot more.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
mrcvs said
As collectors age and more and more quality pieces come on the market, there’s plenty to pick from, so one shouldn’t have to consider a refinished piece, Turnbull or otherwise. A Turnbull restored Winchester is a restoration, 0% original, and is of less value or interest to me than a nonrestored Winchester with little original finish.
I am not interested in restored guns and see even less value in a gun that has been refinished that wasn’t even a wreck to begin with. It seems that there are plenty of people enamored with his work that the bling outshines the loss of an original gun to make one look like new.
A gun can be refinished 100 times but is original only once. If you take a new Winchester and have Turnbull color case it, fine, it isn’t ruining an antique gun. His work does look good, but I don’t want a Turnbull restoration any more than I would want a 6.5 Creedmoor…
Shrapnel said
I am not interested in restored guns and see even less value in a gun that has been refinished that wasn’t even a wreck to begin with.
That’s what I was trying to get at–if it truly IS a badly abused wreck, no harm done by a first-class restoration, & it might be saved from the gun-breakers. But I know for a fact that some, maybe many, well-used but clean guns are subjected to this treatment, because I once tried to buy such a gun the owner was intending to send to Turnbull; he wouldn’t listen–he wanted a “new” old gun.
1873man said
I don’t care for them either. His case colors are so dark. I liked the guns done by Rogers Restoration a lot more.Bob
Roger did do case hardening but later on started using Turnbull instead. When he got the receiver back from Doug he aged them back. Now that Roger isn’t around I can say this. Had to bite my tongue many times in the past.
By the time you buy a gun worth restoring and with the restoration costs you can easily be in a gun for $6 to $7 thousand.
Edit; I never saw Roger do this while I was at his shop and I have talked to Turnbull about this subject. Turnbull will age it back for you. So maybe he was also doing it for Roger? In either case the aged back components, case hardened or blued, do look better to me too.
Chuck said
In either case the aged back components, case hardened or blued, do look better to me too.
Absolutely they do! I’ve had occasion to do this several times, by the simple method of rubbing with 0000 steel wool & oil, bearing down on the high-points, etc.; takes more rubbing than you might believe. Have any idea how Turnbull does it?
Hello all,
I am not a restoration fan myself. The fact that the gun ends up with replacement parts puts it into the “Miroku” ballpark for me. I collect these because of their age and uniqueness. If I wanted a brand new looking gun I would go and buy one. I would even go so far as to say a 50% one of a kind, or extremely unique gun is worth more to me than if that gun has 10% of it’s original parts and looks pretty.
And that 23 inch engraved Model 1894 looks real nice in my collection! :))
Merry Christmas
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Winchesters should be like people who age at their own pace, or at least gracefully. I like restorations about as much as I like boob jobs and face lifts. I like character, as long as it is honest.
Even among honest, original guns, from relics to museum beauties, I will take a bucket load of honest, dark wood/metal guns (even relics), over a high priced fancy guns that have seen little or no use.
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