Bill, the mod40 was finally able to use the parts they had to avoid on the 1911, and thus it has a charging handle and recoil system very similar to the A5. Jeremy P said
Without the hump, it’s a pathetic imitation. Want the real thing (US made), buy a Rem 11 or Savage 720.
Zebulon said
Thanks, Jeremy. I’ll watch it for certain.Like old Elmer Keith said, “There’s always somethin’ new to learn, ain’t there?”
Nail on the head….I’ve found this Winchester journey (last two years for me) to be one hell of a steep climb. It’s humbling to learn every day you don’t know jack s^*t. 🙂
November 7, 2015

tim tomlinson said
Clarence, a right down thing of beauty! Not. There are nicer ways but someone did what they could and likely used it accordingly. Tim
I like it, probably not a permanent mod and it even has a ten-round magazine.
Mike
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Clarence, you have touted slip-on pads as the remedy for everything from dandruff to urinary incontinence but I have tried several different ones, from cheap to eye-watering and have not found any that don’t wobble and squirm when I cheek the stock. It is intolerable on a shotgun and, while manageable on a rimfire rifle (although a PITA), yields under heavy centerfire recoil in unpredictable ways that can alter point of bullet impact.
I would not cut the horn buttplate off my 1955 Light Twelve but I don’t shoot heavy duck loads through it either. Not a duck hunter anyway.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle.
oldcrankyyankee said
Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle.
I did make the comment that I do like a pad for another than the usual reason – when I set the rifle down and lean it against something, it is less likely to slide (as the gun is usually standing at an angle).
It might be different style of hunting, but a sling on any hunting rifle is important to me.
steve004 said
oldcrankyyankee said
Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle.
I did make the comment that I do like a pad for another than the usual reason – when I set the rifle down and lean it against something, it is less likely to slide (as the gun is usually standing at an angle).
It might be different style of hunting, but a sling on any hunting rifle is important to me.
That’s fine Steve and I would never disrespect your point of view. But I was taught, due to various situations, never let your rifle leave your hands. A lot of “game ” would probably prefer it had.
steve004 said
oldcrankyyankee said
Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle.
I did make the comment that I do like a pad for another than the usual reason – when I set the rifle down and lean it against something, it is less likely to slide (as the gun is usually standing at an angle).
It might be different style of hunting, but a sling on any hunting rifle is important to me.
I won’t have a hunting rifle without one, & I’ve put fishhook swivels on several heavy SSs; even put QDs on my A5 Browning. Never had that problem of a gun sliding when leaned against something, though I know it can happen, but then I take pains to make sure it’s well supported in that position.
But I agree with Cranky about shooters who bite off more than they can chew. Even if they do, recoil below the intensity of the super mags you just don’t notice in typical hunting situations involving one or a few shots.
oldcrankyyankee said
steve004 said
oldcrankyyankee said
Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle.
I did make the comment that I do like a pad for another than the usual reason – when I set the rifle down and lean it against something, it is less likely to slide (as the gun is usually standing at an angle).
It might be different style of hunting, but a sling on any hunting rifle is important to me.
That’s fine Steve and I would never disrespect your point of view. But I was taught, due to various situations, never let your rifle leave your hands. A lot of “game ” would probably prefer it had.
Again – might be different styles of hunting. Every day I hunted involved spending at least part of the day climbing up into a deerstand. Usually about 15 feet off the ground. – rifle slung over my shoulder. Also, pulling a gutted deer on a rope through the woods back to camp, rifle slung over my back. We took our share of risk. But we took risk in all things. Some of it was unavoidable. My Dad’s youngest brother is still alive. We were reminiscing on the phone last Friday. Mainly about all the hinky farm equipment we made the best of – hay mowers and the like. Thinking back my uncle thought it was amazing not only were none of us killed, but we never had any major injuries. We cut a lot of wood and I remember an old Case tractor with a 36 inch saw blade mounted on the left side toward the front. It ran an 8 inch wide leather belt form a wheel mounted on the side of the engine. You pressed a log against it to cut it. It was extremely awkward. And dangerous! When we took car trips in my Dad’s Desoto, as a small boy, I remember laying on the back ledge in the rear window for most the trip. No one had even heard of a car seat. What would the law do now if they spotted that?
Recoil tolerance varies with the individual. It usually diminishes with age. Size, weight, body configuration, and physical strength are factors. Muzzle blast enhances perceived recoil. Recoil above about 30 foot pounds causes accuracy to deteriorate after several shots, in most people. Unmitigated recoil above 50 pounds can detach retinas. Facts, not opinion.
While long strings are usually unnecessary in hunting game with a high power rifle, the shotgun sports are another matter. And, while I have no experience hunting dangerous game, even i can observe that extended (fixed) magazines are commonly seen on big bore magazine rifles made by Holland, Rigby, Jeffrey et al., presumably for a reason. I also note every one of such rifles I’ve seen featured a substantial recoil pad, whether carried by the client or his PH.
Like the Silvers recoil pads ordered by Theodore Roosevelt for his .405 caliber Winchester 1895s he used in Africa. TR had his faults but softness was not one of them.
I believe our federal Constitution protects every American’s right to go to hell in his own particular way. I invite those who disagree with me to follow their own path.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015

oldcrankyyankee said
Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle.
I’ve found a recoil pad helpful for ensuring a consistent mount with a shotgun and suspect it helps with offhand rifle shooting as well. The nonslip characteristics of a recoil pad help initiate a good mount and decrease movement when the shooter is moving and firing. A consistent mount with a shotgun is vital to good shooting and to a lesser degree with a rifle, in my experience. Recoil mitigation is important to me even though I generally pack up after two rounds these days. I don’t think recoil bothers me but when that evil flinch shows up I know otherwise.
Mike
TXGunNut said
I generally pack up after two rounds these days. I don’t think recoil bothers me but when that evil flinch shows up I know otherwise.Mike
Mike,
You are so right! After years of shooting flat shooting and hard kicking elk rifles, I finally decided that a 257 Roberts kills them just as dead as I need them to be, without all the punishment. (There are no degrees of dead.) And any more, after a fairly small number of shots with heavy recoiling rifles, accuracy is gone for me, as the “Chicken Fairy” begins dancing on the end of the barrel as I anticipate the coming punishment of the next shot.
BRP
Blue Ridge Parson said
TXGunNut said
I generally pack up after two rounds these days. I don’t think recoil bothers me but when that evil flinch shows up I know otherwise.
Mike
Mike,
You are so right! After years of shooting flat shooting and hard kicking elk rifles, I finally decided that a 257 Roberts kills them just as dead as I need them to be, without all the punishment. (There are no degrees of dead.) And any more, after a fairly small number of shots with heavy recoiling rifles, accuracy is gone for me, as the “Chicken Fairy” begins dancing on the end of the barrel as I anticipate the coming punishment of the next shot.
BRP
The Swedes and the Norwegians figured this out in the late 19th Century and are likely making jokes about our new whizbang 6.5mm Creedmore. The 6.5 x55 Swedish Mauser has been reliably killing moose-sized game in Scandinavia for more than a Century, and in Canada and some of our Central Northern and Northwestern States, to which their descendants migrated, for many years. All with little more recoil and report than a 6mm Remington. They were not alone. The Austrian 6.5 Mannlicher cartridges and their 6.5 Mauser cousins did a lot of whatever needed doing, Worldwide, for a long time.
Winchester offered the Model 70 Featherweight in 6.5 Swede some years ago. Now it’s the Creedmore, which limits bullet weight because one of its design parameters was a short action. The Swede needs a long action but can manage 160 grain bullets if the barrel twist if fast enough.
Long for caliber bullets at moderate but enduring velocities are pleasant to shoot and effective for any game in Texas, at reasonable ranges as determined by the shooter’s skill. It is not rocket science that such cartridges and the rifles that shoot them can be shot more accurately by most people who are learning to shoot, than heavier recoiling and louder weapons. Every military organization that has studied the subject since the American Civil War has come to this conclusion, some more haltingly than others.
Perhaps that doesn’t carry over perfectly to hunting for sport or subsistence but I believe the real problem for many American sportsmen and would-be sportsmen and certainly in Texas, is not getting in enough shooting to gain and maintain field proficiency. That is, offhand and using unorthodox rested positions. Most ranges don’t allow this and few in urban Texas have access to private land for practice even with a rimfire. Although technically illegal under most municipalities that have adopted a Model City Code, an air rifle in the back yard is often the best that can be done.
Too often the duff shooter tries to solve the problem with foot pounds. I had a lease partner once who was, to be kind, not an Olympic class rifle shot. His solution for Central Texas Whitetail deer was a 300-378 Weatherby Magnum with a muzzle brake. Even with the brake, the recoil was very nasty because it came back as fast as it did hard.
I suppose the thing had some advantages: Everyone else on the lease knew when he shot a deer because the muzzle blast and the sound of the explosive impact was audible anywhere on the 2000 acre property; and the animal was effectively field dressed by the gutshot, if inedible. Unless you were a devotee of blood pudding full of bone and tendon fragments, shredded organ tissue, and some partially digested chunks of whatever the victim had for breakfast. If you were very lucky, the vestige of lower intestine smeared with recognizable stool would float to the top where you could extract it before tucking in.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I had similar experience. I was at a good size regional show. On ta table I saw travesty (I had long desired this model ) model 12 heavy duck first 6 inches of the butt stock cut off,and a badly fitted chunk of wood with a recoil pad added. I saw an opportunity I negotiate to buy it for five hundred and fifty. I should tell you it had 95 percent metal, and I later found 32 inch barrels with a solid rib. This might be wrong but on the other side of the show I found new model 12 wood.i will keep this until the end of my days.i feel I restored something I loved .my first winchester was a low condition 16 GA model 12 from a family member this to I will keep.what is the community felling, please let me know.
Michael, you have engaged in the honorable practice of preservation, having restored what ultimately would have been disassembled and sold as parts, a sad fate for a Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun.
I once owned a Model 12HD and so learned that Winchester weighted the stock with lead inserts to slow recoil velocity and improve the balance of the gun and its usually long barrel. The stocks of an HD ordinarily came with a red Winchester recoil pad. If the stock you bought was not specifically for an HD, it would not contain the weights or have the correct Winchester pad. You could fix that if you wished to.
I’m no Model 12 expert and there are others on this forum who are. In time, they may correct what I’ve said and offer additional advice.
I believe the general attitude of WACA collectors concerning restorations is this:
1. Undertaking undisclosed improvements to a piece to increase its “collectibility” and thus its price, is dishonest fakery.
2. Undertaking the identical improvements but fully disclosing them to a prospective buyer is acceptable and will affect the gun’s resale value.
3. Saving an abused but restorable Winchester from the parts aftermarket is not only honorable but laudable, as long as you don’t present the gun as being in its factory original condition and fully disclose the work.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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