The irrationality of collecting|Page 3|General Discussions & Questions|Forum|Winchester Collector

tim tomlinson said
Clarence, a right down thing of beauty!  Not.  There are nicer ways but someone did what they could and likely used it accordingly.  Tim

  

I like it, probably not a permanent mod and it even has a ten-round magazine. 

Mike

clarence said

Firstly, because it slightly increases the length of pull to suit my 6’2″ frame; Zebulon said

Need extra length?  Next time, try this:

  

It hurts my eyes.

Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle. 

steve004 said

oldcrankyyankee said

Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle. 

  

I did make the comment that I do like a pad for another than the usual reason – when I set the rifle down and lean it against something, it is less likely to slide (as the gun is usually standing at an angle).

It might be different style of hunting, but a sling on any hunting rifle is important to me.

  

That’s fine Steve and I would never disrespect your point of view. But I was taught, due to various situations, never let your rifle leave your hands. A lot of “game ” would probably prefer it had.    

oldcrankyyankee said
Sorry but I have to say this. All this clatter about recoil pads has made me realize how soft we are today. I never owned a gun with one and see no reason to. They are generally more useless than a sling on a lever gun or most any gun in my opinion. My advice is don’t buy a gun you can’t handle. 

  

I’ve found a recoil pad helpful for ensuring a consistent mount with a shotgun and suspect it helps with offhand rifle shooting as well. The nonslip characteristics of a recoil pad help initiate a good mount and decrease movement when the shooter is moving and firing. A consistent mount with a shotgun is vital to good shooting and to a lesser degree with a rifle, in my experience. Recoil mitigation is important to me even though I generally pack up after two rounds these days. I don’t think recoil bothers me but when that evil flinch shows up I know otherwise.

Mike

Blue Ridge Parson said

TXGunNut said

I generally pack up after two rounds these days. I don’t think recoil bothers me but when that evil flinch shows up I know otherwise.

Mike

  

Mike,

You are so right! After years of shooting flat shooting and hard kicking elk rifles, I finally decided that a 257 Roberts kills them just as dead as I need them to be, without all the punishment. (There are no degrees of dead.) And any more, after a fairly small number of shots with heavy recoiling rifles, accuracy is gone for me, as the “Chicken Fairy” begins dancing on the end of the barrel as I anticipate the coming punishment of the next shot.

BRP

  

The Swedes and the Norwegians figured this out in the late 19th Century and are likely making jokes about our new whizbang  6.5mm Creedmore. The 6.5 x55 Swedish Mauser has been reliably killing moose-sized game in Scandinavia for more than a Century, and in Canada and some of our Central Northern and Northwestern States, to which their descendants migrated, for many years. All with little more recoil and report than a 6mm Remington. They were not alone.  The Austrian 6.5 Mannlicher cartridges and their 6.5 Mauser cousins did a lot of whatever needed doing, Worldwide, for a long time.

Winchester offered the Model 70 Featherweight in 6.5 Swede some years ago. Now it’s the Creedmore, which limits bullet weight because one of its design parameters was a short action. The Swede needs a long action but can manage 160 grain bullets if the barrel twist if fast enough.

Long for caliber bullets at moderate but enduring velocities are pleasant to shoot and effective for any game in Texas, at reasonable ranges as determined by the shooter’s skill. It is not rocket science that such cartridges and the rifles that shoot them can be shot more accurately by most people who are learning to shoot, than heavier recoiling and louder weapons.  Every military organization that has studied the subject since the American Civil War has come to this conclusion, some more haltingly than others.

Perhaps that doesn’t carry over perfectly to hunting for sport or subsistence but I believe  the real problem for many American sportsmen and would-be sportsmen and certainly in Texas, is not getting in enough shooting to gain and maintain field proficiency.  That is, offhand and using unorthodox rested positions. Most ranges don’t allow this and few in urban Texas have access to private land for practice even with a rimfire.  Although technically illegal under most municipalities that have adopted a Model City Code, an air rifle in the back yard is often the best that can be done. 

Too often the duff shooter tries to solve the problem with foot pounds.  I had a lease partner once who was, to be kind, not an Olympic class rifle shot. His solution for Central Texas Whitetail deer was a 300-378 Weatherby Magnum with a muzzle brake. Even with the brake, the recoil was very nasty because it came back as fast as it did hard.

I suppose the thing had some advantages:  Everyone else on the lease knew when he shot a deer because the muzzle blast and the sound of the explosive impact was audible anywhere on the 2000 acre property; and the animal was effectively field dressed by the gutshot, if inedible. Unless you were a devotee of blood pudding full of bone and tendon fragments, shredded organ tissue, and some partially digested chunks of whatever the victim had for breakfast. If you were very lucky,  the vestige of lower intestine smeared with recognizable stool would float to the top where you could extract it before tucking in.

Michael,  you have engaged in the honorable practice of preservation, having restored what ultimately would have been disassembled and sold as parts, a sad fate for a Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun.  

I once owned a Model 12HD and so learned that Winchester weighted the stock with lead inserts to slow recoil velocity and improve the balance of the gun and its usually long barrel. The stocks of an HD ordinarily came with a red Winchester recoil pad. If the stock you bought was not specifically for an HD, it would not contain the weights or have the correct Winchester pad.  You could fix that if you wished to. 

I’m no Model 12 expert and there are others on this forum who are. In time, they may correct what I’ve said and offer additional advice. 

I believe the general attitude of WACA collectors concerning restorations is this: 

1. Undertaking undisclosed improvements to a piece to increase its “collectibility” and thus its price, is dishonest fakery. 

2. Undertaking the identical improvements but fully disclosing them to a prospective buyer is acceptable and will affect the gun’s resale value. 

3. Saving an abused but restorable Winchester from the parts aftermarket is not only honorable but laudable, as long as you don’t present the gun as being in its factory original condition and fully disclose the work.