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January 26, 2011
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I agree this is very interesting and makes me hopeful more will surface, but as mentioned, it’s more like an invoice showing the work done and how many people would care about saving it back in the day?
If a factory logbook was ever found with all the R&R records, that would certainly add a whole new dimension to collecting. I suppose for as many of those records that would verify a gun’s current configuration, just as many would ruin a guy’s day if it didn’t.
~Gary~
November 7, 2015
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pdog72 said
I agree this is very interesting and makes me hopeful more will surface, but as mentioned, it’s more like an invoice showing the work done and how many people would care about saving it back in the day?If a factory logbook was ever found with all the R&R records, that would certainly add a whole new dimension to collecting. I suppose for as many of those records that would verify a gun’s current configuration, just as many would ruin a guy’s day if it didn’t.
I’m an optimist. I think a repair log will be found, I just hope I live long enough to see it. I realize it may be incomplete and only a book or two. Better minds than mine are certain they were all destroyed or lost.
Mike
I was talking with Chris (1892takedown) at Tulsa and he pointed out at the bottom of the page is “CHECKED: J.P.P.” (J.P. Parker) which is the same initials you see stamped on guns that have been worked on. The other thing that caught my eye is the order numbers for the different processes do to the parts, in particular is “CF #23”. You see “CF” stamped on the side of the lower tang of some guns which I’ve been told was “CUSTOM FITTING”. I wonder if there is a connection.
Bob
1873man said
I was talking with Chris (1892takedown) at Tulsa and he pointed out at the bottom of the page is “CHECKED: J.P.P.” (J.P. Parker) which is the same initials you see stamped on guns that have been worked on. The other thing that caught my eye is the order numbers for the different processes do to the parts, in particular is “CF #23”. You see “CF” stamped on the side of the lower tang of some guns which I’ve been told was “CUSTOM FITTING”. I wonder if there is a connection.Bob
Hi Bob,
In this particular case I suspect the “C.F.” on the document might refer to “Case Finish”.
Thanks for posting the image, it is VERY interesting.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
January 26, 2011
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1873man said
I was talking with Chris (1892takedown) at Tulsa and he pointed out at the bottom of the page is “CHECKED: J.P.P.” (J.P. Parker) which is the same initials you see stamped on guns that have been worked on. The other thing that caught my eye is the order numbers for the different processes do to the parts, in particular is “CF #23”. You see “CF” stamped on the side of the lower tang of some guns which I’ve been told was “CUSTOM FITTING”. I wonder if there is a connection.Bob
Bob
I noticed the JPP as well which nicely connected the dots to the guns marked this way … as you mentioned. Here’s an example photo or two.
~Gary~
1873man said
The CF on the repair order could be CUSTOM FINISH.Bob
Good point, you are probably correct.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Well now Gary, there is a ’94 that should be in My rack,
have You a picture of the whole gun, it looks beautiful.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
According to Madis all standard finish was to be blued after 1901. My 1885 single shot made 1904 has an obvious finish other than blue. Was technician supposed to see order no. 13971 to see what finish was to be applied ? My stock and butt plate also has this number stamped on them. It also has a single set trigger which doesn’t appear on letter but does refer to nickel butt plate. Madis states that surplus nickel butt plates were used until supply ran out.
Confusion reigns supreme. Don
86Win said
My 1885 single shot made 1904 has an obvious finish other than blue.
Appears to me rcvr. has been completely scrubbed of its original finish, probably blued, with steel wool or some other abrasive, maybe a fine wire wheel. Are there any protected areas where remnants of the original finish remain?
86Win said
According to Madis all standard finish was to be blued after 1901. My 1885 single shot made 1904 has an obvious finish other than blue. Was technician supposed to see order no. 13971 to see what finish was to be applied ? My stock and butt plate also has this number stamped on them. It also has a single set trigger which doesn’t appear on letter but does refer to nickel butt plate. Madis states that surplus nickel butt plates were used until supply ran out.Confusion reigns supreme. Don
Don,
What is the serial number on your Single Shot low-wall? I agree with Clarence… it appears that the original finish was abrasively removed.
Bert
WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
Bert, the SN is 97274 and I have sent you info before. This has not been scrubbed. I have completely disassembled this before. In Madis’ 1of 1000 book he indicates this was made about 1911. My Letter indicates 1904. The attachments from his Wjnchester Handbook refer to case-hardening taking on the APPEARANCE of a flecked nickel finish which is what I believe I have. Any more thoughts? Don
86Win said
Bert, the SN is 97274 and I have sent you info before. This has not been scrubbed. I have completely disassembled this before. In Madis’ 1of 1000 book he indicates this was made about 1911. My Letter indicates 1904. The attachments from his Wjnchester Handbook refer to case-hardening taking on the APPEARANCE of a flecked nickel finish which is what I believe I have. Any more thoughts? Don
Well, that would explain the “CF.” But since the letter fails to mention the SST, I wonder if the lower tang could have been taken from another gun. What a bad idea–placing the serial on a removable part, rather than the rcvr.
Clarence, The SN 97274 is stamped on tang behind the trigger. The order no 19371 CF is stamped on the left side of the tang. The order no. 1937 is also stamped on the stock and butt plate. There is no way the tang has been replaced as long as the no.s match. Don
Don,
The assemble number on the side of the tang is 1937, the trailing 1 is not part of the number.
Bob
Don,
Assembly numbers should always match so if the trailing “1” is part of the number then your wood and butt plate doesn’t go with tang. The purpose of the number is to match the parts together and having a different number on one part is counter productive. Also the gap between the 1937 and the 1 leads me to believe its not part of it. I don’t know what a 1 by itself would signify.
The lower tang looks like it has some blue on the side so if that is correct and not a photo issue then the gun was blued.
Bob
86Win said
Bert, the SN is 97274 and I have sent you info before. This has not been scrubbed. I have completely disassembled this before. In Madis’ 1of 1000 book he indicates this was made about 1911. My Letter indicates 1904. The attachments from his Winchester Handbook refer to case-hardening taking on the APPEARANCE of a flecked nickel finish which is what I believe I have. Any more thoughts? Don
Don,
First, disregard almost everything that Madis has written in any of his books about the Winchester Single Shot… grossly inaccurate.
S/N 97272 was manufactured July 15th, 1904. It was received in the warehouse August 10th, 1904. Accordingly, it was originally blued, and the receiver frame on your Single Shot has positively been scrubbed with something abrasive. I can very clearly see a substantial amount of surface pitting that was not removed when the rust & corrosion was cleaned of the receiver frame. What you are seeing is aged bare steel. Get yourself a 3X – 5X loupe and objectively look at the surface of the receiver frame under magnification.
Bert
WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
For those of us with”CF” stamped on the tang of our rifles take note that Dr. Hudsons invoice has an item “CF” #23 case hardening, receiver. The charge for this was $1.50. I assume W. O. stands for work order.
Also my 1876 that letters with a set trigger and removed before shipping is stamped 1937 and 102 on tang. I think the 102 is for removal of set trigger. My 1885 single shot is stamped 1937 1 and CF on tang and does not letter with set trigger. Are these similar no.s a coincidence? Don
JWA said
1873man said
The CF on the repair order could be CUSTOM FINISH.
Bob
Good point, you are probably correct.
Best Regards,
Based on the work order, it appears the different finishes, etc are based on an internal coded system (Plating = #11, Color or cased Finish #23, etc.) We know the “CF” on lower tangs occurs on both color case hardened and blued guns (1973, 1876, 1886) and on blued guns (1892, 1894, and would expect the same for color case hardened 1892’s or 1894’s). So the “CF” we see on the lower tang may not necessarily correspond to the “CF #23” on the work order.
1873man said
Don,Assembly numbers should always match so if the trailing “1” is part of the number then your wood and butt plate doesn’t go with tang. The purpose of the number is to match the parts together and having a different number on one part is counter productive. Also the gap between the 1937 and the 1 leads me to believe its not part of it. I don’t know what a 1 by itself would signify.
The lower tang looks like it has some blue on the side so if that is correct and not a photo issue then the gun was blued.
Bob
Would agree with Bob, not sure what that extra “1” is, unless it is a 5 digit assembly number (which do exist). The lack of that last digit on the wood and buttplate is anomalous. If it is a 5 digit assembly number, it would appear as 5 digits on the wood and butt as well if both are stamped. Would check the font of the assembly number on the lower tang against that on the wood to see if they are similar or not, or if they were added to the wood and buttplate. Would agree with others who have commented, the finish on the 1885 receiver would have been blued. You can see in the photos it had some rusting and has been cleaned. The lower tang and receiver finish whether CCH or blued should match.
As for the 1876 with the 1937 stamped on the lower tang, dont know there would be a correlation between the two.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
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