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Questions on Winchester Model 94 #88750
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June 16, 2018 - 6:58 pm
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What are the signs of collectibility and what could harm the value.  It’s original condition, never re-conditioned, was dad’s go to deer riffle with several stories he fondly told.  Won’t let me insert a photo, maybe cause i’m a free member. Because the date range of manufacture make it an antique in Canada and the US any issue selling it into the USA?

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June 17, 2018 - 3:24 am
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Winchester Model 1894 serial number 88750 is not an “antique” per U.S. regulations, as it was manufactured in July of the year 1900. So the answer is Yes, there is an issue with selling it in the U.S., as it needs to go through a licensed importer, and be marked accordingly.

The condition, caliber, and the configuration are the key factors in determining the “collectability” of your Model 1894.

Bert

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June 17, 2018 - 12:30 pm
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So I’m reading this Winchester website incorrectly on the serial numbers.  

Year 1896 – ending serial number #76,464

Year 1897 – ending serial number #111,453

So how could #88750 be July 1900.  Where are your numbers coming from, i want to get my facts straight.

 

Thanks for the help.

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June 17, 2018 - 1:48 pm
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You need to just accept that most of the internet date of manufacturing dates for Winchester are WRONG, and they have been wrong since they were published. There are much better records now that show a very different DOM, but the old incorrect lists stay with us for unknown reasons. If you want the correct DOM using the old Winchester polishing room records now housed at Cody Firearms Museum, go to the home page on this site and at the top click on “resources”, then on “when was you gun made”, fill in the blanks and there you have it. That is the correct DOM for your rifle.

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June 17, 2018 - 4:18 pm
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Bert H. said
Winchester Model 1894 serial number 88750 is not an “antique” per U.S. regulations, as it was manufactured July of the year 1900. So the answer is Yes, there is an issue with selling it in the U.S., as it needs to go through a licensed importer, and be marked accordingly.
The condition, caliber, and the configuration are the key factors in determining the “collectability” of your Model 1894.
Bert  

The US Government probably used Madis’ information to set the serial number range for what is legally supposed to be an antique.  The polishing room records at the Winchester Museum (CFM) have been known about for many years.  Some say that even Madis knew about them??  Around 2007 David Kennedy, CFM Curator, made these records public.  The polishing room records show that many 1892’s and 1894’s are actually not antique because they were manufactured after 1898 but the US Government has not changed their serial number records.  So per US serial number list your gun is antique.   According to the Winchester data it is not.  So if you go by the Cody records your gun does not meet the part of the US guideline that your gun must be made before 1899. 

In the US most of these grey area guns are sold as antique.  None will ever be sold with a letter because CFM will state they are not antique.

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June 17, 2018 - 10:33 pm
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cwachter said

The US Government probably used Madis’ information to set the serial number range for what is legally supposed to be an antique.  The polishing room records at the Winchester Museum (CFM) have been known about for many years.  Some say that even Madis knew about them??  Around 2007 David Kennedy, CFM Curator, made these records public.  The polishing room records show that many 1892’s and 1894’s are actually not antique because they were manufactured after 1898 but the US Government has not changed their serial number records.  So per US serial number list your gun is antique.   According to the Winchester data it is not.  So if you go by the Cody records your gun does not meet the part of the US guideline that your gun must be made before 1899. 

In the US most of these grey area guns are sold as antique.  None will ever be sold with a letter because CFM will state they are not antique.  

Chuck,

The U.S. government does not maintain an independent set of serial number records.  Instead, they go to the same source that we do… the Cody Firearms Museum records office.  It would be foolish to tempt fate and try importing a “modern” firearm into the United States hoping that everyone involved simply looks the other way.  As I have stated on this forum in the past, the WACA will not advocate or endorse violating federal law. 

For the fellow who started this topic, I have included several pictures showing factory letters for a Model 1894s in the same serial number range as your rifle.

Bert

 

CFM-letter-87010-1.jpgImage EnlargerCFM-letter-88633-TD.jpgImage EnlargerCFM-letter-88928.jpgImage Enlarger

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June 17, 2018 - 10:51 pm
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[email protected] said
So I’m reading this Winchester website incorrectly on the serial numbers.  

Year 1896 – ending serial number #76,464

Year 1897 – ending serial number #111,453

So how could #88750 be July 1900.  Where are your numbers coming from, i want to get my facts straight.

 

Thanks for the help.  

The website you mention is not affiliated with “Winchester”.  The date of manufacture I gave you comes directly from the original Winchester factory records at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center of the West museum (CFM records office).  If you want the facts, contact the CFM records office – https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/ and order a factory letter from them.

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June 18, 2018 - 1:14 am
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This is great info, thanks for everything.

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June 18, 2018 - 1:44 am
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Actually, for whatever it is worth, if you call Winchester, or look at there DOM data on their site, they have the wrong DOM info also. I’m sure people in the know have told them differently, but they don’t seem to care. How stupid is that!

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June 18, 2018 - 1:49 am
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Eagle said
Actually, for whatever it is worth, if you call Winchester, or look at there DOM data on their site, they have the wrong DOM info also. I’m sure people in the know have told them differently, but they don’t seem to care. How stupid is that!  

Peter,

They are not officially “Winchester”.  Instead, they are the Browning Arms Company, and simply licensed to use the “Winchester” name. 

Bert

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June 18, 2018 - 2:30 am
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Ok…their stupid anyway

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June 18, 2018 - 1:57 pm
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Eagle said
Ok…their stupid anyway  

“They’re stupid” would be more correct but I agree with your premise. Wink

Regards, 

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

http://rimfirepublications.com/  

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June 18, 2018 - 3:26 pm
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Sorry…I might have had a G&T before I wrote that. I did pass spelling…really!

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June 18, 2018 - 3:49 pm
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Bert H. said

Chuck,

The U.S. government does not maintain an independent set of serial number records.  Instead, they go to the same source that we do… the Cody Firearms Museum records office.  It would be foolish to tempt fate and try importing a “modern” firearm into the United States hoping that everyone involved simply looks the other way.  As I have stated on this forum in the past, the WACA will not advocate or endorse violating federal law. 

For the fellow who started this topic, I have included several pictures showing factory letters for a Model 1894s in the same serial number range as your rifle.

Bert

 

CFM-letter-87010-1.jpgImage EnlargerCFM-letter-88633-TD.jpgImage EnlargerCFM-letter-88928.jpgImage Enlarger  

Bert when the law was written who ever in the Government wrote it probably did not call the CFM but just used Madis’ data.  I don’t remember when the law was written?  Was it 1968 or earlier?  I don’t believe they keep serial number records but isn’t there a notation for the last serial number that is antique?  I guess I need to read the law again.

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June 18, 2018 - 4:19 pm
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Bert, went back and read the law.  Can’t find any reference to a last serial number.  Here is what it states.

(g) Antique firearm The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Now I wonder where the list I have seen was created?  Another question.  When were the records moved from Olin to the CFM?  I have a letter dated 1962 from Olin.

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June 18, 2018 - 9:52 pm
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IMHO the law refers to a date because the intent was to indentify a date, not a firearm. Besides, listing serial numbers for all manufacturers and models in 1898 would have made for an incredibly tedious law. 

 

Mike

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June 20, 2018 - 4:37 am
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cwachter said
Bert, went back and read the law.  Can’t find any reference to a last serial number.  Here is what it states.

(g) Antique firearm The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Now I wonder where the list I have seen was created?  Another question.  When were the records moved from Olin to the CFM?  I have a letter dated 1962 from Olin.  

Chuck,

The definition you posted above is not the actual text as listed on the BATF website, or in the Federal code.  Instead, it is someone’s personal interpretation of the U.S. Code.

Per U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section §921, paragraph (16), an “Antique” firearm is defined as follows;

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

end quote

I added the bold text and colored font to emphasize what the federal code states and means.  It was the NFA of 1968 (enacted in November of that year) that established what constitutes an “Antique” firearm.

As for the list you mention, it was not assembled or published by the BATF for the exact reason Mike mentioned… it would be a tremendous amount of effort and work, and with very little benefit to the BATF.  That stated, at least one BATF regional headquarter office has the Winchester Antique serial number cut-off list as published in the Red Book of Winchester Values. I was contacted back in 2007 by a Special Agent and in my discussion with him, I answered several specific date of manufacture questions for them, and also sent them an e-copy of the table below;

This Table is an extension of Chapter 2, and it is a handy reference in determining the serial number cut-offs for all of the models that qualify as ANTIQUE or pre-1899. It must be pointed out that most of the the literature on this subject varies widely as some authors are more accurate than others.  In the records archives at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody Firearms Museum, the original Winchester Polishing Room Serialization Record Books are available, which made it possible to determine the exact serial numbers that were the last to qualify as ANTIQUE.
Henry All serial numbers
M-1866 All serial numbers
M-1873 525750
M-1876 All serial numbers
M-1883 Hotckiss 84551
M-1885 Single Shot 82492
M-1886 118646
M-1887 Lever Action Shotgun All serial numbers
M-1890 64748
M-1892 103328
M-1893 Shotgun All serial numbers
M-1894 53941
M-1895 19567
Lee Navy Straight Pull 13679, and 15000 – 20000
M-1897 63867
 
Buffalo Bill Historical Center
Cody Firearms Museum Records Office
Polishing Room Serialization Record Book
Data compiled by Bert Hartman, WACA Historian

The Winchester records were transferred to the CFM in 1976 or 1977.

Bert

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June 20, 2018 - 5:05 pm
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Bert it is NOT my personal opinion. It is out of ATF 26 USC 5845 (g). Title 26 Internal Revenue Code.  Although it is not the exact Code you stated it says all the same things if you read the document.  The section that I quoted is from Chapter 53 Section § 5845. Definitions (g) Antique Firearms.

(g) Antique firearm The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

We are both saying the same thing but from different ATF Codes.  I can’t argue about the list I talked about until I can find it again.  I don’t disagree with either you or Michael.  Your logic makes sense to me. 

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June 21, 2018 - 2:30 am
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Chuck,

First, I did not state that it was YOUR personal opinion. 

Second, I disagree with you that the Title 26 Internal Revenue Code says the exact same thing as the U.S. Code Title 18.  Read both of them very carefully… the Title 26 of the IRC incorrectly lumps sections (A) and (B) of the Title 18 Code into the same paragraph when in fact, they are separate legal definitions.  If you were to strictly adhere to the Title 26 definition, a Model 1885 or Model 1873 rifle made for the 22 Short cartridge would not be classified as an “antique” regardless of when it as actually manufactured.

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June 21, 2018 - 8:18 pm
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Bert, I looked at this part of the law because we were talking about a gun that was coming out of Canada into the US.  This part of the Federal law has sections about importing.  Either Code exempts rim fire.  I am sure that somewhere in each Title they incorporate each other.  Title 18 is more wordy in their definition though. 

If indicted you most likely would be charged under both.  Look what happened to Al Capone. LOL!  Since you don’t live in Ca. you can’t pick and choose which one you want to follow.  LOL LOL….

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