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March 31, 2009
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I recently bought a 2 book lot. The one book I really wanted and the other I had paid no attention to. My old copy of Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West had fallen apart. So I get the lot and finally looked at the second book. Arming the West by Herbert G. Houze.
What a book! It is a study of what specific firearms Schuyler, Hartley & Graham shipped to the West between 1868 and 1886. It will surprise some of you. SH&G was the largest retailer of fire arms in North America at the time. The only major well know firearms maker that had a lot of guns sent West was not Winchester or Colt. Pistols ranked last and cheap single shot rifles and percussion muskets were sent the most. It breaks down shipments to each State West of the Mississippi.
Of the 38,331 guns 544 were Winchesters. 193 were Colts. 3,700 were Remington. 2,598 were Sharps. The largest shipments were 5,567 US Model 1842 percussion muskets, 4,005 Prussian 69 cal Model 1839 percussion muskets, 3,594 Enfield .577 cal pattern 1853 percussion rifles, and 3,150 Model 1822 muskets converted to percussion.
The entire sales records for SH&G are in the Cody Museum.
December 9, 2002
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Thanks for the great info Chuck.
I’ll have to keep an eye out. Usually I can scout one out from the local library and take a hard look at it, before the plunge! 
Tony
March 31, 2009
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Anthony said
Thanks for the great info Chuck.
I’ll have to keep an eye out. Usually I can scout one out from the local library and take a hard look at it, before the plunge!
Tony
You are welcome. It isn’t much of a reference book but it is very interesting. The deliveries and amounts to each State shows where or to whom the deliveries were made. There are 7 ledgers in the McCracken Research Library covering 1868 to 1916 but only the first 2 were used in this search. And only the deliveries that went West. There was a glut of cheap surplus arms after the Civil War and these were the ones most purchased.
The Military and their guns won the West. These were what the settlers used.
January 20, 2023
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That makes a lot of sense.
Some, not all, armsmakers made good money just before and during American Wars but war’s inevitable haftermath, which invariably dumps a lot of surplus arms into the civilian marketplace, has bankrupted many sporting arms manufacturers.
Exhibit A would be Winchester after World War I — it wasn’t immediate but the Enfield contract cancelations weakened them.to the point they couldn’t survive the Great Depression. And Vietnam did the same damage to Olin’s WW Division. Olin had to wait until JMO’s health failed to ditch arms making but didn’t waste time doing it as soon as they could. The Mi4 debacle and 1964 were big nails in the coffin.
Sharps was another, earlier example following the Civil War.
I don’t have the details at my fingertips but I think Marlin, Stevens, and Parker were all done in by postwar recessions.
Star Trek fans will recognize two of the more important Ferengi Rules of Acquisition:
” War is good for business.”
and
“Peace is good for business.”
The first of the two was not true for Winchester.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 31, 2009
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Zebulon said
That makes a lot of sense.
Some, not all, armsmakers made good money just before and during American Wars but war’s inevitable haftermath, which invariably dumps a lot of surplus arms into the civilian marketplace, has bankrupted many sporting arms manufacturers.
The book talks about this. The US had a glut of cheap guns after the war up to about 1870. Foreign sales were good but not good at home. After 1870 when the Franco-Prussian war broke out over three quarters of a million arms were sent to France. Colt, Remington and Winchester made a lot of money on foreign sales but none of them made what SH&G did. This large amount of foreign sales helped the market at home for the major manufacturers. A lot of small companies not so much.
So many of you thought we only helped save France in WW I and WW II?
January 20, 2023
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Chuck said
Zebulon said
That makes a lot of sense.
Some, not all, armsmakers made good money just before and during American Wars but war’s inevitable haftermath, which invariably dumps a lot of surplus arms into the civilian marketplace, has bankrupted many sporting arms manufacturers.The book talks about this. The US had a glut of cheap guns after the war up to about 1870. Foreign sales were good but not good at home. After 1870 when the Franco-Prussian war broke out over three quarters of a million arms were sent to France. Colt, Remington and Winchester made a lot of money on foreign sales but none of them made what SH&G did. This large amount of foreign sales helped the market at home for the major manufacturers. A lot of small companies not so much.
So many of you thought we only helped save France in WW I and WW II?
Chuck said
Zebulon said
That makes a lot of sense.
Some, not all, armsmakers made good money just before and during American Wars but war’s inevitable haftermath, which invariably dumps a lot of surplus arms into the civilian marketplace, has bankrupted many sporting arms manufacturers.The book talks about this. The US had a glut of cheap guns after the war up to about 1870. Foreign sales were good but not good at home. After 1870 when the Franco-Prussian war broke out over three quarters of a million arms were sent to France. Colt, Remington and Winchester made a lot of money on foreign sales but none of them made what SH&G did. This large amount of foreign sales helped the market at home for the major manufacturers. A lot of small companies not so much.
So many of you thought we only helped save France in WW I and WW II?
Chuck, wasn’t it one of the SH&G principals who examined JMB’s prototype model 1886 when the two Browning Brothers came to New York, and told them they had the future of the Winchester company in their hands?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
January 20, 2023
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I tend to get SH & G confused with Schoverling, Daly & Gales.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 31, 2009
Online
Zebulon said
I tend to get SH & G confused with Schoverling, Daly & Gales.
Sounds like a couple of Law firms. Never read anything about SH&G looking at the 86?
November 7, 2015
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Thanks, Chuck. I’ll keep my eye out for a copy. I bought a box full of books at a TGCA silent auction a few years back and actually enjoyed all of them. Quite honestly, I was just trying to get the auction moving. best $10 (or was it $20?) I ever spent!
Mike
ETA: It’s still in print! I’ll buy a new one from Amazon to support one of our favorite authors.
MH
January 20, 2023
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Chuck said
Zebulon said
I tend to get SH & G confused with Schoverling, Daly & Gales.
Sounds like a couple of Law firms. Never read anything about SH&G looking at the 86?
My prototypical law firm is “Bardell, Pickwick, Motley & Slick” — i stole it from the author of The Money Game.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
